The Imperative of Being Selective
Jordan Ames (00:02.673)
Hello, everyone. My name is Jordan Ames. I'm with Ben Hunter. This is the first of the Red Letter Leadership podcast episodes. So excited to bring this to you. I've done several videos myself, but I realized that we can add a whole lot more value if we come together and we do it more of a discussion. And so that's what this whole podcast is all about.
Ben Hunter (00:10.806)
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Jordan Ames (00:30.763)
And the purpose of it is to highlight leadership lessons directly from the four gospels to encourage and equip you, our listeners, to grow as Christ-centered leaders. Some of you may know, may have seen it. Myself, Ben, and another co-author, Eric Albright, released a book last September after writing leadership lessons through all four gospels.
Ben Hunter (00:35.054)
You
Jordan Ames (00:57.913)
Release the book, which is up on Amazon. It's also on logos.com and some other places. And so that's really foundational to this podcast. But we don't always, we don't just stay in the book or in the passage of scripture that we're highlighting. We might reference other scriptures and certainly our own experiences, experiences from others we know. And so we're really looking forward to the kind of value that this podcast can deliver to you.
And not only this podcast, but Eric Albright started another podcast. He started it last summer with a few other gentlemen. It's called The Choice, a podcast for men. So I certainly encourage you to check that out, where they kind of look at passages in scripture. They kind of have themed studies that they do, and they bring on guests. And really, the idea is that they're looking at
Ben Hunter (01:39.504)
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Jordan Ames (01:56.349)
wisdom, discernment, and what choices as men do we have. Now this podcast isn't just for men, it's for leaders of all types, experiences, and all different industries, really. But the focus is to take leadership lessons from the words and example of the life of Christ. All so for this first episode, our topic is the imperative of being selective.
Ben Hunter (02:11.201)
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Jordan Ames (02:26.465)
The Bible is clear that God is a God of selectivity. I was just talking about this with an individual yesterday, Christians sometimes find it hard to be selective. They find it hard to hold someone accountable, and they sometimes think, well, we just need to love them and offer grace. And certainly that is 100 % true.
Ben Hunter (02:44.408)
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Jordan Ames (02:56.213)
We do need to do that. We also need to hold the standard. We need to hold people accountable. We can lovingly and through grace do that while still holding the team together through the standard that is set. And that produces a healthy culture. There are numerous passages throughout scripture that expresses God's
Ben Hunter (03:15.072)
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Jordan Ames (03:26.817)
I'll just highlight a few of them before we get into our reading. Genesis, I think it's Genesis 4 where he accepts Abel's sacrifice, but not Cain.
In Judges 6 and 7, he calls Gideon, he calls him mighty warrior, and then has him raise an army to fight the Midianites who are occupying parts of Israel. And there's 22,000 that Gideon has. And he brings that number through God's direction. He brings that number all the way down to 300 through a selection process.
Ben Hunter (03:43.344)
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Jordan Ames (04:08.629)
And then when we think of us working together as a team and how we're not all good at everything, we need to be selective about who's on our team. We need to be selective about what we personally want to do. The assignment God has given us. What abilities has he given us? What abilities has he not given us that he's given somebody else for us to work with? In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul explains
Ben Hunter (04:09.388)
Okay. .
Jordan Ames (04:37.537)
the team of the body of Christ and that not everyone's an eye, not everyone's a hand, not everyone's a foot, but we each come together to serve that purpose. And so we have to be selective with how we're serving the team, how we're unifying together to carry out really the mission God has for all of us, which is going and making disciples, advancing his kingdom.
And then today, I want to read out of the Gospel of Matthew chapter 3. I'm going to read verses 1 to 12. I'm going to highlight a key verse for today that really gives us the imperative of how selective God is. All right, so starting in verse 1, and I'm reading out of the NIV.
In those days, John the Baptist came preaching in the desert of Judah and saying, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah, a voice of one calling in the desert, prepare the way for the Lord. Make straight paths for him. John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
Ben Hunter (05:32.715)
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Jordan Ames (05:59.276)
People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan, confessing their sins they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them, you brood of vipers who warned you to flee from the coming wrath. Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father.
Ben Hunter (06:03.607)
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Jordan Ames (06:29.396)
I tell you that out of these stones, God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Ben Hunter (06:34.149)
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Jordan Ames (06:58.24)
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." So we have this picture of John the Baptist. starting to baptize people who are coming to repentance. And then the Pharisees and Sadducees come to where he was baptizing. And he immediately
calls them Brutal Vipers. So he's recognizing their flaws and how they're doing things that aren't of God. And really what he's labeling is that they're not producing fruit. Okay, so in verse 10, which is our key verse, he tells them that the ax is already at the root of the tree and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Ben Hunter (07:27.018)
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Jordan Ames (07:56.514)
So it's explained to them that they must produce good fruit. That it's not just because they say that they're religious.
that they're going to be in heaven, that they are with God. It's not to their standard. It's to God's standard. And God's standard is that we produce fruit. Again, he's very selective. And the lesson to take from here is that we, as leaders, must be selective.
Jordan Ames (08:34.018)
Still with that, I want to bring Ben into this and have a conversation about how imperative it is to being selective. We'll get into talking about a team, a culture, and even in our own lives as we look to hold ourselves accountable and being selective, being honest really with ourselves. So to kick things off, Ben, let me ask you, how do you distinguish healthy selectivity from
unhealthy exclusion.
Ben Hunter (09:07.623)
Hey Jordan. Appreciate the good question and thanks for getting this thing started. I just pray this is a blessing to everyone that hears it and I'm excited to continue to do this and excited this is our first time getting together and kind of kick this thing off. So that's a really good question. Healthy selectivity as we talk about it when we talk it in
You know, we look at the Bible, like the book we wrote talks about where we pull the scripture and understand the context of what Jesus is doing, and then we try to look at it from a lens of leadership, leading organizations, teams, and groups. What I think about are high-performing army units or high-performing
organizations, there's always some type of selection process. And I think that that's an important aspect of leadership and building an organization and a team in order to accomplish a mission. And there's a reason why these units or organizations have a selection process.
I you could take any particular job and there's always some type of interview. They're looking for some type of person to fit the role within that organization. And so I think, you know, there has to be some type of standard that a leader is looking for and then do a selection process through interviews, through, you know, when you look at, you know, special operations selections.
and the process that that looks like, there's some type of selectivity. Now what's important there is selectivity does not equal exclusion. And I think a lot of folks can get into that muddy the waters where if we're being selective then we're excluding people, yes, but not just for any particular reason.
Ben Hunter (11:37.008)
other than to ensure that the role that needs to be filled is filled with the people or the person that are right for the mission. And so I think it's important to look at it from that aspect and not to just assume that there are, if there's some type of selectivity, then that means we are purposely excluding folks for no particular reason.
And that's just not the case.
Jordan Ames (12:08.864)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. You're not excluding anybody for no reason. I think foundational to this idea of not wanting to be selective because we might hurt somebody's feelings. We think we're excluding somebody. We might be excluding somebody. I think we really need to look back. And Jesus tells us to deny
ourselves. So the two, I know in the Marine Corps, the two main responsibilities they always taught us of a leader is to accomplish the mission and to take care of the team. Those are the two things. how are we really taking care of the team? And certainly taking care of the team supports mission accomplishment. But how are we really taking care of the team if we're not
Selecting the right people to be on that team and then once we select the right people to be on that team We're not holding them accountable to a standard. You know not to mention That's going to create a pretty bad culture in that team and all that's going to affect mission accomplishment So I think it starts with denying ourself, you know
Ben Hunter (13:27.495)
Yeah, I mean...
It's important to take a look at Christianity and Jesus in the aspect of He welcomes all to come to Him, but there are some kind of standards that once we make that decision to follow Jesus, that we have to abide.
Jordan Ames (13:40.822)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (13:50.71)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (13:59.321)
We have to obey the set rules that are clearly laid out to do that. I think it's in the same aspect. Everyone is in an organization or from our experience in the military, everyone is welcome to apply.
And you want that vast diverse perspectives and talents and gifts to come to an organization, but they still have to meet the baseline standards of that organization. so it just, does, it can be concerning if we take away standards, reduce standards.
I think that's where we get into a place that's unhealthy. But again, because there are standards, in order to accomplish whatever mission that is, does not mean we are being exclusive in a sense. It means that we need a particular type of folks and talents to be able to accomplish a mission.
Jordan Ames (15:27.586)
Yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking of when I was going through the Marsauk selection, I remember they told us that we're not looking for the best person, the best individual. Because what we think about when we're thinking about all these different types of selections, whether it be for military units or other types of things in industry, we're thinking like we have to be number one.
in running, swimming, shooting, whatever. You've got to be number one, which is great. You want to have that competitive edge. But whenever they said that, like, we're not looking for the best person. We're looking for the right person. Like the person who's the right fit for our organization, the person who's the right fit and trainable, because this is only a selection. It's just to get you to where we're actually going to train you to do what we want you to do.
So the best person, and after I heard this, I heard a story, I think it was like a couple classes before mine, where they had, there was this officer going through selection and he was crushing like the rocks, the swimming, like his fitness reports, which are our, I think in Army, their OERs is like an annual evaluation. His fitness reports, like he was the top lieutenant at his organizations, his units. Like he was just, yeah.
in, of course this guy needs to be in a special operations unit. He's just, he's top of everybody. But then when it came to peer evaluation, nobody wanted to serve with him. And you're like, wow, like this guy is top of everything, but yet something behind the scenes was happening, how he treated people, his arrogance made, I have no idea, but he didn't get selected.
Ben Hunter (17:01.669)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Hunter (17:19.065)
you
Jordan Ames (17:24.404)
He was the best person, but he wasn't the right person. So yeah, I don't know. Maybe you have some stories through the different selection processes you've been through like that.
Ben Hunter (17:29.113)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (17:36.035)
Yeah, you know it's funny, think about, so you know I spent a lot of time in Ranger Regiment, the 75th Ranger Regiment, and a lot of folks that I worked with, kind of the next step after spending you know five, ten years within the 75th Ranger Regiment was go to Delta Selection and you know it's just kind of the next tier up within the Special Operations community from the 75th Ranger Regiment.
And we worked with that unit quite a bit in combat and on missions. But there were so many times that we would have, I would know someone that I worked with in the 75th Ranger Regiment that was a physical fitness phenomenon. He was, this guy was, he checked all the boxes.
could run faster than everybody, could lift more than everybody, could rock longer and faster than everyone else, would be the go-to guy on target on an operation. so, next obvious step would be go to Delta Selection. And everybody was like, yeah, this guy's a shoe-in. There were so many occasions where
that particular person would go and come back and not be selected. you you just kind of scratch your head but it just it's a testament to there is a whatever organization at whatever level there there is a they are looking for the organization is looking for a particular type of person or
they are looking for certain different qualities in order to build the team that they want, And it talks, you know, how the Bible talks about, you know, everybody is a different piece of the church and their qualities, you know, make up what the church is ultimately supposed to be.
Ben Hunter (19:58.732)
the hands, the feet, the arm, the eyes, the ears, right? So we all have different gifts and those different gifts produce the whole body of the church. it's the same kind of thing in an organization. You may be able to check all the boxes in these things, but really what they're looking for are other particular qualities that are less what folks see on the outside. Some of it has to do with
other qualities, unique perspectives, unique ways in which a person solves problems, that type of thing. It's kind what it reminds me of. There's more to a lot of this being selective than just meets the eye.
Jordan Ames (20:50.434)
Yeah. Yeah. and it's, it's certainly what and what I've learned, and you're just sharing a little bit like as far as the there's so much to it. And for, for a lot of these selections, I'm of course thinking about my own and Marsauk and other military selections, but there's so much subjectivity.
that has to be flushed out. And so they use all these systems and processes to try to make it an objective decision for whoever's the board, the decision makers, selecting these individuals. And I thought, as I learned more after I got selected, I didn't even think I did very well. I was like, I don't know. Maybe I might not get selected. We'll see what happens.
As I've gone, I've helped support the course. I've seen the backside of how they do everything. And they've taken a lot. know MarSoc took a lot from the different flex.
Jordan Ames (22:01.036)
But it was very impressive to see how much data and everything that they do has a reason. So with that, and how we can maybe especially help our listeners who are in different industries and business, public, private, nonprofit, for-profit, whatever the case, what systems have you seen help leaders make wiser and more consistent selection decisions?
Ben Hunter (22:32.15)
Yeah, great question. You know, when I think about that, I think about one, we have to...
an organization first has to understand what's the mission. What ultimately are we trying to accomplish? then you kind of have to kind of plan backwards and figure out what kind of team do I need to build in order to accomplish this mission. in a lot of ways, it's going to take a diverse team.
Jordan Ames (22:46.614)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (23:07.457)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (23:08.402)
and figuring out what kind of diversity, what kind of unique skills from different individuals do I need to look for and how do I not only select these people but once selected how do I get them to buy into the mission and so there's got to be a baseline of
What's the mission we want to accomplish? What is the why? Why do we do what we're doing? What do we want to accomplish? What kind of folks do I want to bring into the organization in order to accomplish this mission? And then once I have the team, how do I get them to buy into the mission that we're trying to accomplish so they are just as passionate, if not more passionate than
I am as a CEO or whoever is hiring those folks. I worked for a general officer who once said his goal is always to make folks... The minute he knew he was doing well was when the folks that worked for him were more passionate than he was about a problem. That was kind of a marker for success for him. He would bring in the team, build the team.
He used to show a video of during his kind of team meetings of there was a video of a guy at a concert in a field and Everybody was just kind of sitting listening to this concert. Well, then one guy got up and just started dancing and everybody at first was kind of looking at him and like kind of you could tell we're just Like talking and laughing at him. He didn't care. He was just dancing and this was the CEO right? This is the leader. This is the guy who's like
Jordan Ames (24:51.394)
You
Ben Hunter (25:01.973)
Come on guys, this is what I need you to do. Meanwhile, everybody's looking like, you know, skeptical about it. And the next thing you know, you got somebody else that just kind of walks up and starts dancing with him. And this is a lot, this is a real video. This wasn't just like made up kind of thing, acting. was somebody videoing this guy. And then shortly after, the next thing you know, you had like, you know, two, three, four, five, then there was like 50 people started dancing because this one guy. And it was just an example of.
Jordan Ames (25:18.668)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (25:30.184)
A lot of times as leaders we can feel like we're that guy in the middle of the field dancing and everybody's looking at us like we're crazy. And why is, you this isn't what we typically do. Why is this guy doing this? You know, which we always love that comment. This isn't how we usually do things. But the guy didn't stop. He kept doing it. And next thing you know, as folks started to buy into what he was doing, you know, the entire audience was in on it.
Jordan Ames (25:45.554)
Right.
Ben Hunter (25:57.745)
and having a good time and doing what he was doing. you know, I think kind of went off on the question there, but it's a long way of saying, think, you you got to first really understand what is the mission we're trying to accomplish here. And to be honest, I mean, there's so many organizations out there that have not quite gotten that right. And a lot of times we got to take a step back and like, why are we doing what we're doing? What are we trying to accomplish? Do I have the right people on the bus?
Jordan Ames (26:17.664)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (26:26.344)
right, is something that comes from one of my favorite leadership books, Good to Great. And so, yeah, mean, that's how you find out if you've got the right people on the bus, and you've got to have the right people on the bus in order to accomplish the mission.
Jordan Ames (26:48.298)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I was just thinking of a couple, I guess, arguably leadership principles as you were talking and some of the stories you were sharing. It's like the people, the team buys into the leader before they're going to buy into his vision or her vision. Right. So we do this process of.
selection, but we also have to understand you even mentioned some some organizations have gotten like why why they exist or why they're doing what they're doing maybe have gotten that wrong and they need to either clear that up or go a different direction or whatever the case and that's that's kind of a different leadership you know lesson for a different day but but the idea of if a leader is leading a team
to do X, they have to already be bought into who he is as a leader before they're really going to be bought into the vision, the direction that he's taken them. And then another thing, as you were talking, is the idea of ownership. Like you mentioned, the one general who you're working for. So when he knew he was doing a good job, was whenever the people below him were more passionate about the problem that
Ben Hunter (28:08.292)
you
Jordan Ames (28:17.666)
that the organization was facing than he was. And it's like when a leader leads in such a way that people buy into that vision, they start to take ownership of that. And now they're like, they're probably telling the general, like, no, sir, we can't do that. We got to do this. Because they're like, they're so passionate about it. And of course, like any good leader wants that honest feedback. They don't want the yes man. They're just doing whatever. Because the yes man.
Ben Hunter (28:38.799)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (28:47.67)
He's probably not too bought into the vision, or he's not taking ownership. He's just like, yeah, we'll do whatever you say. You're the guy. You're the boss. Whatever. And good leaders know that that's not really a healthy situation. Yeah, we've got time for a few more questions here. I do want to kind of get back to the words from scripture. Of course, it generated this conversation over being selective.
But I'll reread.
Jordan Ames (29:33.855)
That's talking about if we're not in Christ, because that's how we produce good fruit. We've got to be in Christ. And if we're not in Christ, then when we move into eternity, we're going to face separation from God. But when we're talking about producing good fruit, what does producing good fruit mean in a modern business or ministry context? So even in organizational ministry, nonprofit, church,
business context, what is it, how can we translate that like producing good fruit?
Ben Hunter (30:09.852)
Hmm, yeah.
That's a really good question. So producing good fruit is in alignment with the fruits of the Spirit and abiding in Jesus and abiding in His Word and then producing and then what that does is produces the fruit of the Spirit. when you look at
the fruits of the spirit. mean, you're checking the box on every high quality or characteristic of a strong or a leader, right? And so, you know, I really think about the fruit of the spirit and how
When we are in alignment, which is kind of a word that has been kind of jumping out to me in scripture and in my Bible reading here lately, when we are in alignment with God,
and we are producing within ourselves the fruit of the Spirit, then we can lead an organization with confidence, with humility, with a servant heart, that folks will see that. Our team will see our sincerity, they'll see our servant heart, they'll see our patience.
Ben Hunter (31:53.533)
and understand and they will want to follow and they will want to follow a lot of times because they just see our actions and the fruit of the spirit in our actions and want to they will buy in to the organization they will buy into the leader who is producing the fruit now also you know you could look at the you know producing fruit as being
having good outcomes, right? Within an organization, being, you know, for all intents and purposes, being profitable, which then provides longevity, which then provides for your team, you know, the means to be able to take care of themselves in order to give back to organizations and churches and, you all those things. And so I think it's, there's lots of layers there that you could talk about.
with producing fruit, but at first is going to take being in alignment with God, abiding in Him in order to do that.
Jordan Ames (33:04.115)
Yeah, it's great. And of course, bringing up the fruits of the spirit. When I think of those, and for the listeners who may not know what we're talking about, Galatians 5 verses 22 and 23, Paul lays out the fruits of the spirit, he out nine of them. And one, we have to remember they're the fruits of the spirit. So like Ben has been sharing.
We must abide in Christ for us to bear the fruits of the Spirit, because they're coming from Him. But as we look at this from a business, ministerial, team, organizational type of environment,
Like think about a team that has those fruits, that has love and joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control certainly. That sounds like a very healthy team, right? And that should be, as leaders, that should be the foundation to what we want in our teammates. But now let's flip the script on that. Let's think of like,
The people that don't have those or they have the opposite, They share instead of love, they are spreading hate and dissension. Instead of joy, they're always, you know, looking at the cup half empty and they're seeing all the negative around them. They don't have self control. You know, they're not gentle and not kind. Like those types of things.
When you have somebody like that, that maybe you've gone through a selection process and hiring, promoting, whatever the case, and now that person's on your team, that will be a cancer that if it's not dealt with, again, and as Christians, we should be dealing with a person like that in a very loving, grace-giving way. If we've already selected them, well then, maybe there's a process of one-on-ones
Jordan Ames (35:20.223)
Certainly confronting them, telling them where they need to be, changing some things, how we need to not see them spread dissension or whatever the case may be. But it needs to be addressed nonetheless. And then if they're not fixing it, that's when leaders, they're the ones responsible to make those hard decisions, say, all right, you need to let them go. Again, because it's about mission accomplishment and team well-being.
And you bring a person like that onto a team, the team welfare is going to tank, the culture of the organization is going to tank. And like I said, it needs to be dealt with.
Jordan Ames (36:05.663)
So this was great, Ben. I really appreciate the insights you shared. Before we leave, I just want to leave our listeners with a challenge. We kind of want to do that after these episodes, because it's in our book. Every lesson that we put in our book, we just wrote a short little suggested application to how you can apply this short lesson to your life.
So as we think about going from this episode and how you can apply it, how you can challenge yourself, really take an honest look. Are you, one, being self-disciplined and looking in the mirror, holding yourself accountable to areas where you need to change? That way you can be a better teammate.
And then at the same time, as a leader with some people who you're responsible for, maybe you're responsible for an organization's culture, what is your selection process? Whether it's hiring or even promoting within the organization. And then think about those hard decisions you might need to make. What do you have in your systems and processes to hold people accountable?
to make sure that you're taking the time to pull somebody aside and correct them in a loving manner, but in a straightforward manner to hold the standard. So I'll leave you with that. We really appreciate you joining us. And with these episodes and the different platforms that podcasts are on, we're going to be sharing some links.
in the descriptions where you can get, for instance, a copy of our book or maybe even join some of the different webinars and things we do. So thanks for listening, and we'll see you next episode.
