Jordan Ames (00:02.952)
Hey, welcome back to another episode of Red Letter Leadership podcast. This is actually our fourth episode and we decided it would be good to give a little introduction of who we are. So for the listeners that have already been listening to our previous episodes, you get a little taste of our backgrounds, where we're coming from. And hopefully that gives you a little perspective on what we're sharing, the lessons we're sharing.
what, how God has really worked in our lives. And so to start off, red letter leadership. I was retiring from the Marine Corps in 2022 and Lord really laid it on my heart to get into leadership development space, not having a clue what that even meant, but do it in a specifically a Christ centered capacity, like deliver.
leadership training, consulting, again, figuring out what all that even meant in the leadership development industry, but do it very much openly faith-based, Christ-centered. And so as I thought about what that looked like and try to get some clarity on this vision, the Lord laid it on my heart to start writing leadership lessons from the red letters, from the gospels.
So I really just started in Matthew one, taking notes for myself. But as I took those notes, I realized it could be in these short little lessons. So started writing those lessons and decided January 1st of 2024 that I would push them out on a small email list just to gain some credibility and see where this business concept of it all would go. But in that time,
the Lord laid on my heart to reach out to Ben Hunter. And it was after some talking with him, he was getting excited about the vision. I met Ben when we went through an army school together in 2015 and hadn't really talked to him, stayed in contact through social media and whatnot.
Eric (02:22.543)
Is this where we can insert boos?
Jordan Ames (02:26.266)
Booze?
Eric (02:27.823)
Yeah, army schooling, anything like that? No, I'm sorry, just asking. It was a random question. Inner thought became an out of thought.
Jordan Ames (02:36.743)
No words. Yeah, I mean, we don't really have the, I don't know. You can insert whatever you want, sure. So yeah, so I reached out to Ben and got in contact and he was interested in what I was doing. And so we kind of started a dialogue. And then right around that same time,
mutual friend of mine and Eric's introduced me to Eric and got him plugged in. And it was as I was finishing up the book of Matthew that these two guys, after I asked them to help me out with this, because I saw it was a big undertaking and I also didn't know where it was going. But what the Lord was doing was he was bringing
more perspectives to the content that I was trying to produce. So rather than just myself bringing my own leadership perspective, these guys with their phenomenal experience and the testimonies that they have, they were able to dig in and bring fresh perspectives that, know, angles of leadership lessons and principles from the gospels that I
wasn't seeing. So it's been rewarding. It's been really refreshing for me. And personally for me, it's been an iron sharpening iron experience. And so of course, that turned into a book. Again, we were pushing these leadership lessons out just as opportunities to share some of our experiences, again, from a Christ-centered perspective. That turned into a book.
And now we want to take all those lessons that are compiled into the single volume and present them to as far reaching an audience as the Lord would have this reach with the technologies there are today. Podcast is a great opportunity to do that. And with saying that, me acknowledge. Eric Albright started the podcast, The Choice, a men's podcast with men from his church.
Jordan Ames (04:55.072)
back in summertime, right Eric? Yeah, well, I'll let him talk a little bit more about that whenever he shares some of his background and intro. But again, if you listeners out there, you have it on your heart to God is putting a word on you to share with people. Certainly this type of forum is a great opportunity and.
Eric (04:58.275)
Yeah, August timeframe,
Jordan Ames (05:21.588)
with technology the way it is, there's no reason why, you know, we shouldn't use more of it. But with that said, this podcast is to, so this book is our three perspectives, but this podcast is really to expand those perspectives and open up that dialogue, share comments, reach out to us with comments. This isn't, we're, we told a podcast we were on as we were releasing this book that it's a,
It's a comprehensive study of Jesus' leadership, but it's not exhaustive. And so it's not exhaustive because it's only our three perspectives. And that's what's amazing about God's word. It's a living word. And as he works in each of our hearts, our different perspectives and how he uniquely made us will be able to sharpen each other. So I'm so happy and thankful, one, that Ben and Eric
join me in writing these lessons, but now as they join me to host this podcast and In the near future we'll start bringing on other guests again Getting their perspective and to serve you our listeners and how we can all be better Christ-centered leaders and grow in that way because he is Ultimately the greatest leader of all time So with all that I'd like to start with just giving Ben
the opportunity to share about himself and Ben if you could just share about like your upbringing, your background, where you came from, all the way up to when you joined the military and how God has moved and shaped your life in that capacity.
Ben Hunter (07:09.419)
Yeah, awesome Jordan. I'd be happy to. yeah, this podcast is really exciting and I'm glad we've gotten a chance to get it going. you know, I think it was a really good idea by Eric to just say, hey, let's take a pause and, you know, going through the book and let's talk about a little bit about ourselves. So folks understand where we're coming from. And, you know, we did write this book and the things that we talk about on the podcast, probably helpful to kind of understand where we're coming from. But
So for me, I call home Birmingham, Alabama. It's where I graduated high school. And I joined the military right after September 11th. I remember, as most folks do, exactly where I was when that day happened. At least for those folks old enough listening to this that were around. I was sitting on the couch.
at my house just kind of watching the news and watching TV and just kind of sitting there like, man, I feel like I need to do something. This is crazy. I feel like there's something here for me to do other than just sit here and watch the events unfold on TV. at that moment, I called my dad. My dad had a military background. He was in special forces during
the Vietnam era. never deployed to Vietnam. He was in a special forces group that was focused on Eastern Europe. He tells me several times he requested to be assigned to a different special forces group so he could go to Vietnam. But thankfully he didn't because very likely I wouldn't be around if he had gone.
I called him and I said, Dad, know, feel like, you know, this is crazy. I feel like there's something I need to do here, something I could do. And I'll never forget what he told me. He said, son, if they would let my old, you know, expletive jump into Afghanistan tomorrow, I would, I would go in a heartbeat. And, you know, at the time he was probably, he was at least 50 years old.
Jordan Ames (09:30.592)
Yes.
Ben Hunter (09:35.643)
And so I was like, well, dad, that's...
Eric (09:36.636)
Hold on, let's not call that old, okay? Because some of us aren't that far away, Benjamin.
Jordan Ames (09:41.472)
All right.
Eric (09:43.977)
Let's be careful here.
Ben Hunter (09:45.263)
Yeah, well, that's yeah, but I do I would call myself old for sure at this point. But so yeah, you know, he told me that he's like, son, I'd go jump in Afghanistan tomorrow if they let me. And so I literally just like put the thanks that I put the phone down. I went to the recruiter and I was in basic training in October 2001. And, you know, fast forward.
Jordan Ames (09:45.695)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (10:15.751)
went through basic training airborne and went through Ranger indoctrination program and was assigned to the 3rd Ranger Battalion. early 2002, I was in Afghanistan. Second deployment into Afghanistan for the Ranger Regiment. And I was crawling through caves with a flashlight and a 9 mil pistol looking for Osama bin Laden.
Eric (10:43.091)
and a real bad attitude.
Ben Hunter (10:44.976)
Yeah. I mean, I joke, but it really was that circumstance many a times where we were in Afghanistan, those first deployments, and it was just like, he's out here somewhere. You guys go find him. And of course, we were definitely going after other cells and sub-leadership within his folks.
Jordan Ames (10:45.098)
You didn't find me, did you?
Ben Hunter (11:13.64)
We were going after them and doing lots of fun, cool stuff, but there were absolutely times where they like, hey, go climb up on this mountain ridge and go look for some caves and see if he's up there. But anyway, yeah, so that was my start into the military and was in the third Ranger Battalion from 2001 till about 2009. Cool story. My brother actually served with me.
My brother and I were in the same platoon together. He came in about six months after I did. We went on probably eight to 10 deployments together. We jumped in at Iraq when we first invaded Iraq together. And then around 2009, Tim and I kind of split ways. I went to OCS to become an officer in the Army, and he went on to go into
a highly classified special operations unit as an operator. And so he did more cool stuff and I became an officer in the army. I went back into the range regiment as an officer a couple times and yeah, fast forward 24, 25 years later, here I am. But it's been a journey and
Jordan Ames (12:22.196)
So done doing cool stuff.
Ben Hunter (12:39.687)
I've had some amazing experiences, unique experiences, everything from working for the FBI, Joint Terrorism Task Force, the Army sent me to Duke University and got a chance to do some really neat stuff there and study national security policy and got a master's degree. yeah, it's been a great experience.
Like you said, you contacted me back in 2002 and we've been kind of connecting ever since on this journey. and I went to, I still got the trophy when you and I, Jordan won the PT competition. We were also the oldest in the class. But, you know, I think we brought back our old high speed enlisted roots and we beat all the captains in the captain career course and the fitness competition.
Jordan Ames (13:19.892)
Yes, here. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (13:34.496)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (13:39.857)
But it's been a great ride and for sure my spiritual life has been something that has kept me grounded. I am not the perfect Christian by any means and I've learned a lot of hard lessons throughout my journey. But thankfully the grace and mercy of God has kept me on path and having an opportunity to write this book with these
Jordan Ames (13:41.45)
Good times.
Ben Hunter (14:08.135)
these two other awesome individuals has been a highlight of my life for sure. It's a very rewarding opportunity to take a 24, 25 years of experience working for amazing leaders, being in leadership positions, and then diving into the scripture and having an opportunity to look at it through a lens of my military experience and then also a lens of my walk with Jesus.
It's been an amazing spiritual growth opportunity. And like you said, Jordan, iron sharpening iron. it's just, and then now we're doing this podcast and our book being used at Liberty University Divinity School for leadership in a leadership course. mean, nothing I ever thought would be something I'd be involved in. so it's, yeah, it's just been an amazing ride and an amazing blessing.
Jordan Ames (15:07.392)
Awesome. So before I ask you to talk a little bit about your family life and how Lord has used you, taught you, grown you as a family man, husband, father, could you share just a little bit? Obviously, you have tons of leadership experience. You have tons of leadership experience before you ever became an officer. And then you certainly have different leadership experience in your time as an officer.
But could you share kind of beyond the military some of the things that just as a leader, some of the opportunities you've been able to serve in?
Ben Hunter (15:49.466)
Yeah, mean, well, one, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my wife, who I've been married to for 22 years. Foundationally, she has been an amazing part of my life, my spiritual life, my military life, and leadership. And we've been fortunate enough to raise three awesome daughters.
Two of them are in college at Samford University. One is a junior in high school. They all love Jesus. One of the more gratifying leadership roles in life is raising those three awesome daughters and just seeing them flourish and grow. It's been lots of ups and downs and hasn't been perfect by any means.
amazing daughters and it's been an amazing opportunity to be able to raise them alongside my wife, Lori. But outside of the military, I've had some leadership roles. Like right now I'm the volunteer safety and security director for All Christ Church in Auburn, Alabama. We have two campuses and so this is something I stepped into.
about four months ago, four to six months ago, and it's been a great opportunity to kind of work alongside church staff, help lead a group of 26 volunteers and two campuses and just kind of training them and leading the kind of the effort to keep a safe and secure environment within the church has been a really neat opportunity.
I've had an opportunity to work with Samaritan's Purse quite a bit. did some time. I spent about two months working with Samaritan's Purse under the vice president of public policy. just kind of saw from a, this was during, while I was at Duke University, I went and stayed in Boone and worked there kind of as a broadening assignment from a policy perspective within Samaritan's Purse. And that was a really
Ben Hunter (18:14.38)
enlightening opportunity, travel to DC with them to kind of understand how non-profit organizations can help, Christian non-profit organizations can help kind of steer and implement policies that are helpful for faith-based organizations. So that was a great experience. And then like I said, working for the FBI was a very rewarding.
experience in New York. fact, kind of a neat story. I was tasked with a task force within the FBI that looked at eastern Africa and terror cells within eastern Africa. I actually had an opportunity to identify some really neat, unique things.
that were going on with some of the terrorist organizations there. And actually a report that I worked on made it to the president's desk for his intel update brief during the time when I was there. So that was a really neat experience to kind of have an opportunity to that effort. But I've done everything from coach my kids soccer team and lead life groups with my wife. We did a small
life group for young military couples when we lived in Alaska and that was a very rewarding and special time to do that. yeah, I hope that answered your question. think those are some of the outside of the military things.
Jordan Ames (19:47.676)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely that's Clearly, you know for the listeners you guys see how Experienced and knowledgeable that Ben is so Again Ben thankful to have you on here before I before I go over to Eric Is there anything you want to share? With the listeners any like big
Challenge or trial that God has walked you through that you've recognized has really grown you grown you some opposition or conflict This is really a point of encouragement to you know to listeners
Ben Hunter (20:18.7)
Mm.
Ben Hunter (20:23.498)
yeah.
Ben Hunter (20:27.747)
Yeah, know, I think one particular one I would bring up would be I had just finished company command time. I was at Fort Stewart, Georgia. And I had a successful company command. I was rated number one company commander in the brigade. I was on cloud nine. Everybody was telling me how awesome I was. And quickly, things kind of turned to different when I injured my back.
And I was bedridden for a good two to three months. I couldn't walk. I had to pee in a bedpan and my wife was like taking care of me. And, you know, it's one of those moments where I went from hero to zero and it was a humbling experience, something that was life changing and altering for me in my spiritual walk. It was a time where I had been in the army for at that point probably
Ben Hunter (21:29.187)
15 to 18 years. so I was, you know, I was the Army and being an Army Ranger and Army leader was my identity. And within a moment, I quickly found out that that was not my identity. And it was a journey and a tough one to go from, you being told,
I'm one of the best. I can't even walk to the bathroom. And, you know, God took me through a journey where he just kind of took away everything that I thought was my identity to really show me what mattered and what my identity was as a child of God. So, yeah, would say that was that that was a big pivotal life changing moment for me. Lesson learned from, you know,
probably at that point had let pride take over my life as being told how good of a leader I was. I had probably let that get to me a little too much and I see God using that time for me to humble myself and see really what mattered in life and who I really was outside of the military.
Jordan Ames (22:59.038)
Wow, yeah. don't know if I ever heard that story from you. That would have been right after triple C, right?
Ben Hunter (23:02.048)
Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Ames (23:07.498)
Was that on a jump you injured your back? No?
Ben Hunter (23:09.824)
No, well, I mean it was kind of a wear and tear thing. I had lots of back injuries over the years and then I had been training and was on an obstacle course and doing fitness and I just kind of had, like most of us in the military, tweaked my back. And that next day it was hurting really bad so I went and kind of did a light workout to make sure I didn't hurt myself any further but I ended up hurting myself further.
I was in the locker room at the gym, Fort Stewart, Georgia, and I was trying to change out of my PT uniform into my duty uniform, and I couldn't get my boots on. My back just kind of seized up. I had herniated a disc in my back, and it smothered the nerves. I quickly went into severe nerve pain, couldn't walk.
Eric (23:38.218)
Hmm.
Ben Hunter (24:07.509)
and I had to ask, talking about humbling moment, I couldn't even put my pants on and I was the only one in the locker room and a random guy walks in I had never met and I said, hey buddy, I need some help, I can't put my pants on.
And by the way, after you put my pants on, can you take me to the emergency room? And so this, I was a captain, I think this guy was a young NCO, I think he was like a E5, E6 or something. And I'm like begging him to like take me to the, put on my pants and my boots and take me to the ER please. And then my wife ended up meeting me at the ER, because I couldn't move, and I was on the floor in the lobby of the ER room.
Eric (24:25.792)
Hmm.
Eric (24:31.083)
Mm.
Ben Hunter (24:52.128)
because it hurt so bad when I stood up. I had to lay sideways on the floor. was only way I could breathe. It was a bad moment.
Jordan Ames (25:06.4)
Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing, Ben. Certainly, certainly a humbling experience. But the Lord knows what he's doing, right? He works all things for his glory and for our good, even our humbling experiences. You know, he's probably up there laughing at you, laying sideways on a-
Eric (25:09.651)
Yeah
Ben Hunter (25:15.433)
Right.
Ben Hunter (25:19.137)
Yeah, it's true.
Jordan Ames (25:27.68)
All right, I wanna shift over to Eric. So Eric, could you walk us through like what your upbringing was and all the way into your time in the military and kind of that transition, what got you going in the military and the different experiences you had?
Eric (25:47.135)
Yeah, sure, absolutely. I've never been on my back in the floor of an emergency room, but I have hurt my back trying to put my socks on before. And so, this is that whole getting old thing. And so when you talk about like humbling experience, like go ahead and like try to put a left sock on and end up next thing you see, you're looking up at the ceiling wondering how am I going to get out of this situation? Let me tell you.
Ben Hunter (25:58.122)
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Eric (26:14.589)
I know you guys have medics, the Navy has corpsmen, and listen, they're worth every penny we pay them, fellas.
And so I get what Ben's like, well to the degree he went through, but I understand somewhat. So I would not wish that on anybody. But if you haven't been out there and that hasn't happened to you, it will. Just wait. Just wait. so like, you know, so you would probably, Jordan Ben's story is one of like brawn, workouts, big muscles, adventurous activities, hunting down these famous terrorists. Look, that's not, that's not me boys.
Okay, I'm mostly interested in swimming pools, luxury, and mimosas. Okay, that's the air wing and beach volleyball. And yeah, it's right. And so yeah, a little bit. That's what I'm talking about. Exactly right. And so yeah, a little bit of background. I grew up Pennsylvania, not in the South.
Jordan Ames (27:01.952)
and beach volleyball.
Ben Hunter (27:09.183)
Just like a good aviator.
Eric (27:18.091)
And, you know, went to school up there, four-year college, joined. I went to OCS after my sophomore and junior year. I knew after my sophomore, during my sophomore year that the military was something I wanted to pursue specifically in aviation. And, you know, joined up, went through flight school, up selected for the aviab harrier. Not that that matters. That's just background stuff. Spent some time in the squadron.
The first go-round, first deployment in Afghanistan. Ben, I don't know when you were there. Sounded like in 2002, maybe a bunch of other times. We may have been shared some of the same airspace. So deployed to Afghanistan in 2011-12. Then I left, went to recruiting for three years. And that's where you really learn leadership at a distance. Leadership through influence rather than direct impact, face-to-face stuff. Because know, five states, 50,000 square miles, you got a lot of room.
to not have to do what the boss says. And so you got to kind of figure out how to get them to respond in a way that they want to do it because they don't have to, right? And so we did that and went back to the squadron for another four year stint, another deployment, this one in Iraq. We fought OIR during that timeframe. Did my department head tours, maintenance officer, operations officer, executive officer time. Left there, ended up at the Marine Corps University and teaching.
exhibition or warfare school after the first year there, I became the chief instructor, which is essentially the dean of students, associate dean of faculty stuff there. That's really where like you get to take a knee and talk about leadership and grow and explore really like the different, you've got the hands on experience. Now, how do you teach it? How do you talk about it? How do you translate that into an academic environment and where you can relate to the folks that can take it out and then apply it?
Apply it into the real world when they leave and go back in the fleet and so you guys went through and triple C So the course I taught is the Marine Corps variant of that It's and so it's the it's called exhibition of warfare schools in back Marine Corps ground task force planning But you could have came enjoyed us you didn't have to go through George's the army school you and of Jordan both We'd had a good time on Geiger Ridge I went where they sent me
Jordan Ames (29:34.144)
Yeah, I went where they sent me.
Eric (29:37.611)
But yeah, so I spent three years there and that's actually where I think I wrote a good portion of this book. I don't remember if I left there and went to the Presidential Airfield in Quantico and I finished out with supporting HMX1 on the Airfield in Quantico and Presidential Air Lift ops. And so that's kind of where I'm at now. And so that's the professional side of the house. That was the XO there. Professionally, that's where I left, know, faith-based wise.
During it wasn't really until I mean I grew up in the church But I and I would call what would what I've described since then as I had religion not relationship And speaking of not being up what your socks on I've realized that like if you it really takes a life for a lot of people an impactful event to realize like hold on my pride is in the way and I and it really it takes you the first step in faith journeys in my opinion is humility
And I experienced that as sometime around the middle of my career. We've been, wife and I have been married 20 years. It was around a year 12 or so. And that really what brought us back to the faith, because it's back to the whole putting your sock on thing. If you're on your back, there's only one way to look what fell is and that's up. And that's either physically or proverbially. And that was the change for me. And that was right before we moved back here to Virginia. And so...
you know, several years ago and we've been involved in the faith family and the church ever since. I led the evangelization team, which is missions, outreach, Sunday morning lobby stuff, welcome team, all that stuff. And so I led the evangelization team at the church for a couple of years. And now in the last two years, I've spent time. I'm now the men's ministry leader. In the meanwhile, in the middle of that, we wrote the book that we wrote, Red Letter of Leadership. Last summer, we started a podcast called
The Choice Podcast, a podcast for men, which is geared for the new and somewhat seasoned believer so that they can really start to dig into, and we study men of the Bible, and whether they're successes or failures, we have a lot of fun. We chase a lot of rabbits. Sometimes we talk about nothing relevant whatsoever, but we enjoy doing it. And so it's far less informational, educational, than this one is.
Eric (32:00.113)
And so if you just look at the kill time, tune in. If you're looking to learn something, come here, right? And that's probably the way I describe it. And so that's kind of where I'm at. And then right now, I'm in the transition. I've been retired since October of last year, which is October 1st of 2025. And I'm really just in transition, working as a consultant now and trying to kind of figure out what happens when I grow up still.
and outside of that, I'm just excited to be on this, this podcast with you guys. Again, like I said, I have a wife, Christina, I've been married 20 years as of December and we've got five kids. One's at the Virginia military Institute right now. the other four are either in high school or middle school, two boys, three girls. And we're just kind of doing life, man. And you know, we've got the regular, highs and lows and struggles that every family deals with. And we're trying to navigate those and we're relying on Christ to get us through that man as a cornerstone.
And in some days it's easier than others, I'll be frank. Recently it's been a little harder than it's been easy. And so we're dealing with life struggles and it's using it to build our story and our witness and we're using those things. Here's the thing about, and that's where I'll end it Jordan, the thing about leadership and struggles is, okay, well then I'll take a breath then. In the struggles in life that you go through in the leadership lessons, have two options. You can either look at it as a curse or a blessing.
Jordan Ames (33:09.672)
You're not done. You're not done.
Eric (33:23.531)
The secular world wants you to say, you're doing something wrong. Look at that as a curse. in the faith-based world, the trials and struggles we go through, Ben, I heard you talking about him, his family, Jordan, I you have two. What's a quote unquote curse for you like Job said he was cursed? But at the end of it, what matters is what are you going to do to use that experience to help somebody else? Because for them, it's a blessing.
that you've gone through this because now you're voice of reason and you're of a pillar of experience that they can rely on one year, one month, one day from now that somebody's asking you about that. So what's the curse for you, quote unquote, is a blessing for others. And that's a perspective that's hard to maintain in the fire, right? Shedrack, Meshach, Abednego boys, there was three in the fire. Nope, fake news, four.
And so it's hard to remember that there's always going to be somebody there in the fire with you when you're going through it, man. But it's important to retain that perspective as you're doing this stuff, and that matters. It really does.
Jordan Ames (34:28.042)
Yeah, that's, that's great. Eric, as one thing I've learned over the past several years, really, is how much I know I learned from other people's failures. But with that said, how I need to be, if I'm going to be somebody that's trying to, you know, add value to people and teach somebody a lesson, like I need to be vulnerable and open that they're going to learn.
likely more from my failures than me continuing just harp on some success I had. So that's one thing I've been trying to do better with and certainly it takes that humility. But Eric, before we finish with you, and I didn't prep Eric for this question, but as he was talking, he shared with me last summer as he took over the men's ministry at his church.
Eric (35:00.267)
All right.
Big, point.
Jordan Ames (35:25.44)
direction he was going with it and I thought it was incredible and I thought it was just a great way for a man's ministry to do life together, to minister to each other, sharpen each other, but also equip each other for service outside of their own church, their own ministry. So Eric, could you share with kind of how you started leading your ministry and you kind of share that leadership with a guy or two, right?
And then, and then kind of just share like the structure of it. What do you guys do and just kind of talk through that.
Eric (36:00.779)
Yeah, I'd love to. That's easy. It's easy questions, Jordan. And so, you know, I took over the men's ministry at the church last February or so, February, March timeframe. And when I took it over, know, COVID kind of decimated it, to be frank, and it kind of turned it into a breakfast club for a couple of years. And then another guy took over and really sort of revived it and put a pile of
energy into getting it kind of just moving and going again. so, you know, one of the things he did was like after year one, he's like, look, you know, he did a survey for all the fellows and one of the things they sought was, you know, meant what my takeaway in reading the 30 surveys or so from the guys that filled it out was they were seeking mentorship and fellowship and discipleship. And
I took the men's ministry over and be like, look, I'm just going to meet the men where they're at, right? Rather than try to make it something I think it should be, I'm going to make it something that seems like they want. And it wasn't me, it was me and another guy, led by the Spirit clearly and obviously. And we developed this thing called the Forge, which is really it's a, what's the word, it's based on a pun, but it's a play on, or it's a kickback to Proverbs 27, 17, which is what you mentioned earlier.
Iron sharpens iron as one man and one person sharpens another. And we really kind of took that and ran with it. So you got like the blacksmith's forge, right? Iron on iron time. And we created, so we built what was called the forge. We call them forge teams and they're basically mentorship teams, right? I'll keep it somewhat wave tops, but we have Barnabas, Pauls and Timothes. Barnabas are advanced in their study. Doesn't have to be Bible study or they could be advanced in life. They've got, you could be a Barnabas in the,
in raising children, but you could be a Timothy, so Barnabas, Paul, and Timothy, right? And Paul's, model is every Paul needs a Barnabas and a Timothy, a mentor and a mentee. So you could be a Barnabas when it comes to raising children, but you could be a Timothy in scripture as a new believer. And so, but we took Barnabas and Paul's and Timothy's and we kind of broke them out. They self-identified and we made, you know, fire teams. We call them fire teams. That's a pun for you, Jordan.
Eric (38:18.059)
out of that and so we ended up, I didn't know how it would go, we didn't know would go. We've got roughly 75 active members, men members in the church. 58 of them chose to be part of this. That's pretty awesome. it was kind of the leadership style with laissez faire hands off. I will create structure but I'm not gonna babysit. Like here's what we're gonna do, I'll give you guys...
everything you need for the month, like in terms of here's your topics, a biblical topic and a man topic. Month one was how to grill a steak and Romans one, that's the topics. And so that's the kind of thing, month two was Romans two, three or Romans three, four, whatever. And it was, so if you've got basic car maintenance, which things like changing oil, changing tire, rotating tires, changing fluids.
Ben Hunter (38:58.938)
Thank
Eric (39:11.179)
If that's basic car maintenance, one, do you do that? But conversely, what does basic faith maintenance look like? And how does that play in? So those are the types of things that these guys did, talk through monthly. And they'd meet, whether it's in their basement, whether it's at the church, whether it's at the coffee shop, anywhere they want. We'd kind of let them do their thing. And out of that meeting was what spun the podcast, the Choice podcast, which...
Well, I'll get that to a second, but that's where it spun from but since then like we take well that'll play in so since then we've taken the choice podcast right because someone came up to us one of the pastors and like you two Josh and I are just crazy enough to talk about this on the airwaves and Josh and I are just crazy enough to do it without any experience or idea what we're doing and then we had a young guy who was pretty tech savvy jump in with us and so there's three of us been doing it and since then Jordan
Jordan Ames (40:01.825)
you
Eric (40:09.087)
The Holy Spirit has taken that thing and run with it. And frankly, like I said, it's never been about us. It's always been about him and making and disciples, Matthew 28 style. We've reached north of 10,000 listens, 13 countries. We've started up, we've led to the, that's led to another starting a men's group and another church in the county. It's led to starting another men's, the forge in Pennsylvania at a church. Now that just met for their first time on Sunday and another church out in Ohio and another church in Las Vegas.
and another church in Stafford here that's been asking about it. And so, all from a couple guys who don't know what they're doing, but just dumb enough to try it, and crazy enough to try it. The Lord takes it and He uses it, And it's again, and like that's not because of anything we've done. It's because like, look, He's equipped us and He's just asking us to be faithful. And so if we just do our best to maintain that faith, He's gonna take it and do whatever He wants with it and reach people that He is intended to reach.
that we've never met before. so that's kind of where we're at. that's what the Forge is and it's what it's spun into. And we're about to go into our second ministry year of doing that. And it's mentorship groups of four to five that meet regularly and just do man things, right? We're going to put a level up this year, variant level two, which is a little bit more intentional, a little bit more discipleship heavy. And we're going to offsite going on and some other things.
Jordan Ames (41:08.993)
That's awesome.
Eric (41:34.943)
that are for like people that men that just want to go in the next step, right? And then next year, maybe we'll start to do like a Deacons program. The year after that for your four year guys, like an elders program, like elders track, like really start to dig into this thing. And it's not that Josh and I are running it. We're just facilitating it. We've brought three other men on to be the leadership team with us this year. And again, we trust him to work it how he wants. And we're just trying to create framework and space that he can use.
Jordan Ames (42:01.185)
Yeah, that's great, Eric. I love the vision, the creativity. I was just thinking of, as you talked about, we're equipped. And God has given us the identity to do what He has called us to do. I was thinking of Gideon, where he calls Gideon Mighty Warrior. He called Gideon Mighty Warrior long before he ever told him or...
Ben Hunter (42:01.762)
That's awesome.
Jordan Ames (42:29.217)
charged him with routing the Midianites, right? He calls him Mighty Warrior and then he gives him his assignment. Like he's already identifying who he is, he's qualifying him and he's equipping Gideon for what he wants done. So yeah, thanks for sharing, Eric. Lastly, Eric, where can they listen to your podcast? Like what platforms?
Ben Hunter (42:38.488)
Thank
Eric (42:52.811)
If you have a platform that plays a podcast, you can find it. It's on Apple, it's on Spotify, it's on Amazon. We just started going to YouTube with season two, so you only have a few episodes on there. But the first 50 are secret episodes on podcasts only. But no, I'm just teasing. But yeah, anywhere you can find it, it's called The Choice of Podcasts Men, and you'll see it because you'll see the cross, you'll see the shield, black.
Jordan Ames (42:56.167)
awesome.
Jordan Ames (43:11.018)
Okay.
Eric (43:20.149)
blackened shield with like a gray or brown cross on it. And as soon as you click it, you'll be like, these guys are crazy. You found us. You found us.
Jordan Ames (43:29.361)
Awesome. All right, well, I guess it's my turn. And I'll just ask you guys to hold me accountable and ask questions, keep me sharp. And if I don't know, if it's cheesy.
Eric (43:44.843)
I have one question to start.
Ben Hunter (43:46.177)
Cut you off.
Jordan Ames (43:46.495)
Yeah, go ahead.
Eric (43:48.235)
What's up, man?
Ben Hunter (43:49.495)
We'll cut him off if he gets too cheesy.
Eric (43:52.361)
Yeah, first question. Where's your beard?
Jordan Ames (43:53.226)
Okay.
Ben Hunter (43:56.503)
hahahaha
Jordan Ames (43:56.924)
Yeah, about that. I'm very coarse beard. I've grown it a couple times since I retired. The wife doesn't really like it and I really like my wife. So that's kind of where that goes. But yeah, I actually stabbed, I was trimming my beard to one day. This was I think last winter and I felt like a prick in my thumb. I looked down, one of the hairs I just trimmed, stabbed my thumb. That's how coarse it was.
Eric (44:06.965)
Duh!
Ben Hunter (44:09.483)
That's the only reason you need.
Jordan Ames (44:25.643)
So I kind of feel for my wife when she's like, ow, Like, Yeah, I know. I've tried some of those things. Maybe I haven't had my ones.
Eric (44:29.279)
You know they have beard conditioner. We live in a free country. It's somewhat advanced.
Ben Hunter (44:40.023)
Uhhhh
Jordan Ames (44:40.265)
Man, I just like to be in the maintenance, right? need to condition my beard and stuff, All right, so I grew up in Pennsylvania, several hours east of where Eric grew up from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I live here now. I grew up with a father who was a police officer. He also, like when he talked about the military, he always talked very highly of the Marines. I grew up.
Eric (44:43.279)
Alright, fine.
Jordan Ames (45:09.377)
hunting, camping. I think my first tent camping trip, I was a month old and I'd attended in a camp until probably 15, 16 years old and we kind of stopped doing those vacations. Played football in high school, never really the aggressive type, not by nature. It's something I had to learn. So I got hit plenty of times before I really learned how to hit somebody. I was raised in a Christian home.
Thankfully, parents who love the Lord. And I went through a season where I did the whole ask Jesus into my life when I was really young and went through the whole rededication process at a church camp. Maybe that speaks to some of you out there. And then it was when I was in 10th grade, where I really tell people that I truly got saved, was at a
retreat I went on with my youth group and they had an altar call and I just felt like I wasn't really connected with Christ as I should be and really I felt Him leading me, look you need to truly commit your life to me, truly acknowledge me as your Lord and then actually get going on this whole go and make disciples thing.
So I made that commitment in 10th grade and really it's just, it's been a growth journey ever since. Always wanted to go into the military, like from a very young age. I applied for an ROTC scholarship out of high school. I wasn't that smart, got decent grades because I worked hard, but my test scores weren't that great.
But I was like, regardless on whether I get the scholarship or I enlist, I'm going to the military. So I ended up enlisting in 2000, right before my senior year, graduated in 2001, and I was off to boot camp in June of 2001. For those of you that may be aware of how Marine Corps boot camp is structured, the very last event is called the Crucible. It's this 54-hour event that is supposed to be like,
Jordan Ames (47:34.625)
24-hour combat simulated type event you do ruck marches. You don't get much sleep You don't get much food you do these, you know tactical exercises so on and so forth Well, the first day of that event was Tuesday, September 11, 2001 and I remember them calling us into this big Thunderdome which which they had done several times that day because
Eric (48:01.513)
You guys are the old ones. All this September 11 stuff. Most people in the military now ain't even born then.
Jordan Ames (48:04.799)
Ha ha!
Seriously, yeah. My son just got out of the Marines and he wasn't born yet. He's out. He did five years and got out. Yeah. That is crazy to think about. Yeah. So that day they brought us in to tell us what happened. And I had heard one of the fellow recruits telling me like, yeah, our drill instructor already told us this. And I was like, I said, we're in this combat simulated scenario.
Eric (48:12.789)
That's crazy.
Ben Hunter (48:14.101)
you
Eric (48:17.033)
I feel better about this. You're the old ones.
Jordan Ames (48:37.451)
They're just trying to make it real. Like that doesn't even, that's not a thing. And a couple of minutes later, was back when they saw pay phones, right? You guys remember those things. They had a line of pay phones up. They said, you have any loved ones that worked in these buildings, come up right now and call them to make sure they're okay. And a few people went up to use these pay phones. And I was like, this is real. It's like, you don't,
Ben Hunter (48:48.701)
Eric doesn't.
Eric (48:49.311)
Ha ha ha! That's crazy!
Jordan Ames (49:07.169)
In Marine Corps Bootcamp, you get a 10 second phone call home when you get there, tell them you made it. And then if you're lucky, you'll be able to call home right before graduation just to know the details.
Eric (49:16.063)
Was, what was this Thunderdome? Was it in recruit training, Jordan?
Jordan Ames (49:21.034)
What was that?
Eric (49:22.515)
This was in recruit training.
Jordan Ames (49:24.897)
Yeah, this was the first day of the crucible. So Thursday, we were done with the crucible. We were awarded with title marine to do a little ceremony. And I remember that night sleeping in the barracks and fighter jets from Beaufort flying overhead. And I'm thinking, I joined peacetime Marine Corps. I'm doing four years. I'm getting out.
Eric (49:28.696)
wow, okay I miss that.
Jordan Ames (49:51.539)
and I'm doing like law enforcement or something, following my dad's Our contour is right, yeah. I mean, still, I thought that was.
Ben Hunter (49:53.512)
Thank
Eric (49:55.088)
Au contraire, mon frère.
Have you seen lethal weapon, lethal, have you seen full metal jacket? Yeah, Jordan, have you seen?
Jordan Ames (50:06.481)
yeah, I saw Full Metal Jacket when my brother was joining it like, I don't know what I was 12 or 13. Yeah, yeah, I saw Heartbreak Ridge. yeah, I ate those movies up. So yeah, so I went home on the boot camp leave, went through infantry school, joined security forces, had opportunity to serve at Camp David to do presidential security. But that was all
as the war was kicking off and as even Iraq was kicking off. And so kind of similar to you, Ben, like sitting there like, I can do more. I was at Camp David, like non-deployable, not going over to overseas thinking I should be doing more. And I truly felt Lord give me a passion to do special operations.
And so that's where I left that assignment. It was I had an opportunity to go to Second Force Recon. Did two deployments. Well, one deployment with them to Iraq was my first deployment in 05. And then they became MARSOC. And so they pretty much just changed the name on our building, re-task organized us a little bit. And I deployed with them in 2007. But again, going back to right out of high school, I kind of told myself I was going to make it a
make a career of this, I wanted to be an officer. And so I applied for an officer program, ended up going to Penn State, got my degree and became an infantry officer. I did two deployments as an infantry officer and then that's when I met Ben at MCCC, had just finished MarSoc selection. I ended up being the first guy to serve
Marsok as an enlisted operator to then return as an officer. there's no, I think they have some sort of career path for that person now. But at that time, they didn't have a clue on how that would work. So they're like, you just need to go talk to a recruiter and see if you have what it takes to come back to Marsok. So that was a humbling experience to me. But at the same time, as I look back, I certainly needed it.
Jordan Ames (52:30.565)
And I needed it because I needed to be able to stand in front of my team with them knowing that I went through some of the same challenges and process they did. But then I ended up doing my last two deployments, the first one as a team commander and then as a general's aide over in Afghanistan. And then ended up getting out after moving up here to Pennsylvania. We wanted to move up here and retire from here.
And then that's where I kind of as I shared at the beginning of the podcast where as I started thinking about retirement and what I would do, I really felt called into the leadership development business, which I'm still flushing out as what that looks like. But yeah, so with that said, I have an incredible family. I married my
my wife in 2007 and couple years later she wanted a baby and the Lord decided to close her womb. And she had came to me after about six months of wrestling with God about adoption. She came to me wanting to adopt. And I never really thought about that for myself, for my own family. But I knew other people that adopted. you know, now my wife's claiming
testimony how she wrestled with God about this and something she wants to do so I'm like well you know let's just seek some confirmation but I'm like I'm I'm all about it if that's something that that God's laid on your heart that's certainly something at his heart and so we prayed about within a couple days we're like yeah let's let's do this so we we talked with a friend of ours who was an adoption coordinator and started that process and as we started looking in the foster care system for
sibling group of two boys Lord led us to a sibling group of a boy and three girls so You'll appreciate this Eric, but I tell people the Lord kind of just carpet bomb kids into my house one day
Eric (54:42.953)
Ha! I would say that's more like Ben's Green Beret infiltration method. You became the village.
Jordan Ames (54:45.889)
When it to zero to four. Yeah.
But yeah, so that story does not happen without a strong support group. We're 28 years old at the time. I'm actually a month shy of my 28th birthday at the time. We're young. But Lord called us and he equipped us. We weren't perfect. We failed many times as parents. And we certainly, you know,
learned and have gone through a lot of conflict in the process. that's been the refining process. My kids are resilient. Yeah, so two and a half years later, after that whole adoption was finalized, I grew up with brothers. And I knew for my son, especially as much as I was gone in the
in training and deployments, I wanted him to have brothers. I thought that was healthy for him. And so we were looking to adopt boys. And we decided to go internationally. We ended up adopting our two oldest boys from Ethiopia. We adopted them in November 2013. They were actually 12 and 13 when we adopted them. They're the oldest ones at their orphanage. And those two boys,
were a blessing. They were exactly what we believe we needed and what our son needed, our youngest son at the time. And yeah, like six kids, we were done. And even then, people would tell us, well, don't you want to have a biological one, your own, whatever? It's like, no. Lord gave us six children. We're done.
Jordan Ames (56:50.347)
But we weren't done. Lord decided that we weren't done. So coming back from my deployment in the beginning of 2015, it was right before I moved to Georgia and met Ben. We went to school together. But coming back from that deployment, my wife and I donated blood. And we agreed to be on some national donor registry. Well, six weeks later, Duke University contacts my wife.
and they want to investigate her for or look into about being a living organ donor. And they wanted to test her for her liver. At the time, I didn't know a liver regenerated. Maybe some listeners out there maybe don't know that either. But something I learned is that when a liver is, know, trauma happens, it's cut, it's, you know, a piece of it's taken off, whatever, it actually is designed to grow to fit the body that it's in.
So they're able to, and she was a match and she went in for surgery, they were able to cut a third of her liver out to give it to an 11-month-old boy who was born with a disease where he needed a new liver. And so her liver will grow to fit his body. He's, I think, about to turn 12, will grow to fit his body. And then her liver will regenerate to fit her body.
It's the only organ that does that. Well, a year later, my wife gets pregnant. We're like, whoa, how did that happen? She talks to her surgeon, and he's like, well, when the liver undergoes that kind of trauma and it regenerates itself, it can emit enzymes that will reset the body system. And so what's that?
Ben Hunter (58:27.503)
Whoa.
Eric (58:30.741)
Yeah, that's crazy.
Eric (58:44.447)
Control delete boys. control delete deliver.
Jordan Ames (58:50.977)
Yeah, and so.
Eric (58:53.029)
That's a good... look, you thought... Everybody... everything comes from scripture Jordan. You thought control delete was Bill Gates. Fake news. That was biblical and designed since the... like from the beginning of time. Nice try Bill. Hey listen, you thought the Shrek was the first talking donkey? Fake news. Alright, go see some old boy named Balaam in the Old Testament. Disney didn't make any of this up. Everything's scriptural Ben.
Jordan Ames (59:02.24)
You
Ben Hunter (59:18.797)
you
Eric (59:22.973)
Eric, Jordan, give me a break. Alright, rest of my case.
Jordan Ames (59:27.871)
No, you're spot on though, but...
That Lord, I believe that it's because of my wife's obedience, the Lord opened her womb. And I think about if we didn't move to adoption, we would not have experienced God in the ways we've been able to experience him.
Jordan Ames (59:52.237)
if we weren't obedient in that. Again, I look back in plenty of ways that plenty of mistakes I made as a parent, as a father, with my children. And so I'm I'm blessed to have them as my children, see them grow now into adults. They're 25, 24, 21, 20.
18, 17, and then we have our little nine-year-old. But it's just what God has written on our life is completely God. Like it's nothing we had ever thought of, mapped out. And kind of the same lesson, I think, goes with what Eric talked about with his men's group is it's just stepping out in faith when God calls you into something. Like just do it. You don't have to have all the answers.
You don't have to have a plan. On this podcast, we're talking about leadership. And that's something we should always be trying to refine. But God's not saying, have to develop as a leader before I call you to do X, Y, and Z. If he's calling you, then he wants you now. He doesn't want you 10 years from now. He may want you now so he can refine you. And I can guarantee you that.
you will face friction and opposition and people will say you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that.
Some of those voices are the enemy. Some of those voices are helping refine you. But if you don't stay in God's word, you won't be able to discern which voices are which. And so that is our plea for every one of our listeners, is that you get in God's word. We wrote the book and we want to use this podcast to help you and encourage you to stay in God's word.
Jordan Ames (01:01:59.519)
You know, we bring our perspectives, you know, our thoughts and whatnot. But it's all about using his word to lead from, to live from, to do better, to sharpen each other.
So with that, I'll wrap this up unless you guys got anything else to add.
Ben Hunter (01:02:26.806)
I don't think so man. It's funny, just mentioned in the book real quick, I have a buddy of mine here in my church and he helps out on the security team as well and we're in a life group together. He mentioned the book, he got it the other day and he's like, man, this thing is really, really helpful. He does coaching, leadership coaching himself for corporations and individuals and stuff like that.
And he defined it, he kind of described the book as like, it's almost like a leadership playbook. He's like, when you're, maybe if I have a client or I'm kind of struggling for some answers on how to deal with a certain circumstance, I can go to this section and like find out, hey, what did Jesus do in a circumstance similar to what I'm dealing with? And how did he lead through it? I just thought that was really helpful, really positive feedback.
really thought of it that way but you know kinda like a leadership playbook but
Jordan Ames (01:03:28.469)
That's really encouraging too. Sounds like a future podcast guest. I'm just saying.
Ben Hunter (01:03:30.166)
Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Ames (01:03:37.473)
All right, good, good.
Ben Hunter (01:03:40.109)
Well Jordan, I'll just gonna respond to your life story man. You're an inspiration, you know, your journey and the journey that God's put you on is pretty incredible man. I know Eric, I'll speak for Eric real quick. We're blessed man that you brought us into your vision of the Red Letter Leadership book and this podcast and I'm just, you know, you have God's favor on you.
Eric (01:03:40.383)
Here's something I'll share with you that's-
Jordan Ames (01:04:04.001)
Thanks, man.
Ben Hunter (01:04:08.309)
and your family and your wife. I'm just real thankful, One, thanks for sharing all of that. I mean, as long as we've known each other, I even learned a few things there. yeah, you're, what God's got in store for you in the future is gonna be exciting to watch. So I appreciate you, man.
Jordan Ames (01:04:27.425)
Thanks, brother.
Eric (01:04:29.705)
Yeah, that's good man, that was great. Both of you guys' stories are just incredible. I knew some of that, I didn't know all of that. But man, it's just great to get to know you guys a little bit better. Man, you guys actually, we're we're real friends now, it's crazy. Hey, here's something I was thinking about. So I'm prepping for a podcast episode, times three. We're doing the, David, you mentioned, who was it you mentioned earlier, Gilead? I was thinking about David and...
Jordan Ames (01:04:42.976)
Yeah.
Eric (01:04:58.869)
So David's really got three segments to talk about. It's pre-soldier, it's David on the run, and then it's David is king. Okay? So let's just really quickly hit David pre-soldier, because that matters. And that's what we're talking about with this book. Okay? So take a look at the story of David. He's called and anointed by Samuel the prophet way before he's ever called to fight. Because Samuel go down, anoints him, the spirit rests on David.
And what does David do immediately? Does he go fight or does he go back to his routine? He goes back to the flocks, man. He's being a shepherd. What's the most, what do you guys think is the most probably famous Psalm that exists?
Jordan Ames (01:05:33.675)
goes back to the flocks or the herds.
Eric (01:05:45.867)
Psalm 23, as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. David wrote that. When do you think he wrote it?
Eric (01:05:59.369)
I've given you the answer.
Ben Hunter (01:06:01.142)
when he was on the run.
Jordan Ames (01:06:01.311)
when he was with his flocks.
Eric (01:06:03.179)
Before he was even a soldier man, he was tending sheep. He was fighting bears He was fighting lions and he was protecting the flock. Okay, there's a lot of symbolism there, too But the point is what was David's next major exploit? Goliath the takedown So was David a soldier prior that no was David like some somebody that all his brother like this guy's gonna be something No, he was small. He was number eight of eight. He was the last one he was
but he was the one saying you'll saw it because he was the one the Lord said this is my guy. And so he was in his prep time way before he ever executed. Okay. And so when it was time, so he was spending time and things that he had no idea the value that they would provide to him. But the first thing he did was use that experience because he didn't have a slingshot. That's different. He had a sling. He whipped that thing at 80 or a hundred miles an hour, like shoom.
and killed, well actually knocked out the giant, took his own sword and chopped his head off. All this from protecting the sheep from bears and lions. the point is, this book is similar to that. We need to be equipped to do something we are not prepared or know that we're even going to have to do right now. So what are we doing now to prepare ourselves for experiences or situations that we don't even know are coming down our way?
Right? And it's only through David's faithfulness that he was like, copy, I'm going to do it, go do it, I'm going to blossom where the planet is, the military says, I'm going to get really good at doing the thing I'm called to do right now, which is being a shepherd. And then God uses those gifts. He's like, no, I'm prepped. You're in your prep time, bro. It's the same thing here, leadership wise. What are we doing now while we're in our prep time to face circumstances in the future we don't even know we're going to have to deal with? And that's what it's about. And that's where your discipline, Jordan, comes in, because you talk about that all the time.
us wingers are far less disciplined, but you guys talk about discipline a lot and discipline right now is like you don't equip yourself because you don't know when you're going to use these. And really that's what, that's what that for me that's a takeaway here recently is what are we doing and what are the folks listening doing in their prep time to get ready.
Jordan Ames (01:08:13.195)
Yeah. Remember when we started talking about putting this into a single volume and we were like, you know, these lessons are, it's a library of resources and it's not only something that we can offer, but like we put it into a single volume and now we have just as much access to all the lessons we just wrote. You know what I mean? And I'm like, this is for me.
Ben Hunter (01:08:13.897)
That's good.
Jordan Ames (01:08:41.441)
I was like, love dig digging back into it, regardless on who wrote what lesson, you know, I, you know, I, I can, I can critically read and critically think through the writing and it continues to, to help me out.
Eric (01:08:58.101)
Yeah, it's, you know, every time you read scripture, man, he'll reveal something new to you. We've proven that over and over and over again.
Ben Hunter (01:09:03.528)
Every time. Yep.
Jordan Ames (01:09:03.935)
Yeah. Yep. That's why it's not exhaustive. All right. Well, let me close this out. It's been a lot longer than our typical episodes. But thanks for sharing, guys. And the challenge, I like to leave each episode with a challenge to listeners. And so regarding this episode, I just want to challenge each one of you. Share your story. Share your story. And specifically, be open, be vulnerable, be transparent, and share failures.
You're going to hear as you continue listening to episodes, I'm going to be sharing more failures. Because I want to be an open book. I know I had performance failures in the military as a leader. I've had performance failures as a father. I've had performance failures as a child of God. And if we can add value to you by sharing our story more, by sharing those failures, that's what we want to do.
So we'll see you on the next episode.
