Ben Hunter (00:02.872)
Hey everybody, welcome to the Red Letter Leadership Podcast. Today you got me, Ben Hunter, as your host, and I've got a couple of guests this time. We've got Jordan Ames and Eric Albright, all three of us, the authors of Red Letter Leadership, the book. If you haven't gotten your copy, make sure we'll have a link below of this episode. Make sure you click on there.
get you a copy of the book. This podcast is an opportunity for us to really share pieces of the book and talk through them and kind of share some of our military experience and life experience as leaders. And hopefully in a way that's really helpful for everyone listening and watching. this can really help you understand what the book is all about.
and where we believe that Christ-centered leadership is the only type of leadership to follow. without further ado, gentlemen, thanks for joining me. What we've got for this episode titled or topic is the power of vulnerability and accountability. The power of vulnerability and accountability as a leader.
the Red Letter Leadership book, there's a portion there that I wrote where we talk about Mark chapter 14 verses 32 through 42, and it's Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. This is to me one of the more powerful stories, accounts of Jesus, and really the level of vulnerability that he has with his team.
And so I'll just read a portion of that from Mark chapter 14 verse 34 where he talks about my soul. Jesus says my soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Then he tells his disciples that he brings and he specifically chooses three of his disciples. He says watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.
Ben Hunter (02:28.877)
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. And in this story, you really see where Jesus was weeping. He's having a conversation, talking about how difficult it is to understand what he's gotta do. And he talks to his disciples, the three that he brought with him. He's telling them, and then he goes and is talking to God. But then he comes back and he finds
his team falling asleep and several disciples. So he tells them to stand guard and to watch and to pray and he comes back to them more than once and finds them falling asleep. So there's a couple really great stories here that we can really nugget so we can pull for leadership from this story. So I'm really excited about getting into this with my teammates Jordan and Eric. So, you know, an important aspect of leadership is vulnerability.
And that is kind of counterintuitive, particularly for folks in the military and our experience as leaders in the military, where vulnerability is not something that is probably natural for a lot of folks. But we see here where Jesus gives us an example of how important it really is and how it can actually help build the team. When leaders have an opportunity to be vulnerable, maybe share something
that they're struggling with or maybe a failure that they've had and you are able to share that with your team like, hey, I messed this up or this is hard for me, I need your help. It can be a huge opportunity for your team as a leader if we're able to share that with them and then be part of Jesus with accountability and going to his team and the disciples and saying, hey, I need you to stay awake and then walks away.
and then goes back to verify that they're kind of following his instructions and to find them not. And he's quick to let them know, like, this, you need to do this. goes back, you know, we find out he goes back more than once to check on them and they're not following his instructions. So really great opportunity for us to have a great conversation here. So I'm gonna kick this off right away with a question to Jordan. Jordan, you know, based off this story and
Ben Hunter (04:50.118)
In your experience, where have you seen vulnerability strengthen leadership rather than weaken it? I talked about, vulnerability can be seen initially as kind of a weak characteristic of a leader, but Jesus helps us understand that it's not a weakness that it can actually be helpful.
Jordan Ames (05:19.359)
Yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind, and I failed more than once in the military as a leader, certainly. But there's one specific time was probably one of the more.
I don't know, accentuated failures. I should say one of the failures that had a worse consequence, so to speak, when it came to my leadership. And I definitely lost some trust and confidence with my team. So we were doing a, I was a special operations team commander and we were doing a certification exercise. And I had some performance failures.
that happened and I knew it was me. My team knew it was me. But I could have very easily tried to say, I could have tried to make excuses and I knew that wasn't going to help the situation. Thankfully, what I did well was know that and take ownership of it and I was OK with making myself vulnerable.
And in that situation, was like I made myself vulnerable in the failure. So it was kind of easy to be like, all right, I'm already vulnerable. So now I just need to try to restore the trust and confidence in my team and in my leadership. So I had conversations with my leadership, and I took ownership. I told them exactly where I saw I did wrong and how I'm going to.
Take steps to remediate it, but then I also knew I needed to stand in front of the team Take ownership because it made the whole team look bad, you know I'm the leader and that's one thing leaders need to understand like you will mess up you will fail you will make a mistake and Because you're the leader Because you're you're at the top there's going to be greater consequences to those under your charge
Jordan Ames (07:36.802)
That's just how it works. Organizational leadership, that's just how it works. You're not going to get around that. And so that's what happened. From outside our team, people looked at our team and was like, they're kind of jacked up. But I knew my guys were doing the right thing, and it was my own performance that jacked things up. So I needed to make sure that I was open and vulnerable about that to my leadership, even to some of the adjacent teams, because I didn't want them to.
Like, look, this team is good. I screw these things up, and I'm going to rectify it. And certainly, I stood in front of my team, and I took that ownership. And it didn't immediately restore the trust and confidence. think throughout, had a decent deployment. I think there were some on my team that probably never really got their confidence restored. Granted, part of that could be
their own fault. Like I didn't do something else that would have destroyed it. And some of them certainly, you know, it was restored. yeah, looking back on that, learned a ton from there. Not only, you know, learning my job, the failures, the performance failures, and so I learned from there and could do my job better. But from a leader's perspective, I learned that, hey, this
This actually, I recovered quickly. It bought me ground, especially with my senior enlisted advisor, like my right-hand man. It gained that confidence back very quickly. And I was thankful he was also a believer. So that certainly helped me. But yeah, it's very important to not delay when you have a failure. Maintain your integrity. Be humble. Take ownership.
Move forward.
Ben Hunter (09:36.669)
Man, that's good, that's good. I think about, this is, I think the second time now bringing this one up, but the good to great, and when we fail, we should look in the mirror. When things go wrong, look in the mirror, and then when things go right, look through the window and thank the people that got you to that success, and so good on you, right? Like, this didn't go well. Let me evaluate what I've done and found out, yeah, I screwed this one up, but then taking that next step and getting in front of your.
your people and your team and tell them like, hey, I messed this one up. It's on me. I think a lot of leaders may not be able to do that. And that's good, man. That is so good. Eric, what about you, man? You got anything?
Jordan Ames (10:20.735)
Hey, Eric, Eric. You ever have to eat wrecked out in ABAB or something?
Eric (10:27.592)
Ha, look, you all crazy. of all, thanks for having me on to spend some time with you guys. It's finally good to be able to come in here and just kind of riff you on Leadership Band, because I know it's what makes us all tick. So it's good to have the band back together a little bit. First time, I think, since the book has been published in September that we're all kind of here rifting on it again. So that's exciting. Man, this whole vulnerability thing, I got a couple of thoughts. OK, the first one is, number one,
Jordan Ames (10:29.983)
Ha ha!
Jordan Ames (10:46.657)
Yeah.
Eric (10:57.366)
Well, for us, the Marines, but your people are going to know if you're fake and the funk or you're not. So a lot of times vulnerability is really the society. So you guys said in the beginning, Ben, it has a stigma and Mike, my thought was like, okay, from whom, from whom is this, quote unquote stigma coming from? And the only answer is society, right? The one we live in. And so that's all fake news. And so stigma is something that society ascribes to it.
So why don't we do this? Why don't we just go back to scripture and see what Jesus says about it? shocking. Actually, the upside down world, he came here not to take over, but to serve, right? Not to be served, but to serve. And vulnerability is weaved into his entire existence and his presence and his time spent here with us, right? And the Garden of Gethsemane is one small example of that. And so, for us, Ben, our Marines knew what, before we did,
that whether we got it right or got it wrong, what they're watching for and what your people, if you listen to this podcast, what they're gonna be watching for is your response. Are you gonna try to cover it? Are you gonna try to make excuses? Are you gonna try to own it? And so, and I think, what is it? Jaco's book, extreme ownership matters. not only look for opportunity to own your mistakes and be vulnerable about the things that you've done that weren't necessarily the best decisions,
Look for opportunities to remove that burden from your team as well. So I had an example recently in my current job, actually just today, when somebody, you know, through a breakdown of communication, didn't pass words, a guy showed up early, basic things. And I was like, fellas, get on the call at nine o'clock. We'll get all together. We'll figure this out. The first thing I said was, cause the guy texted me on the side, he's like, I know I told him, the first text that thing I said on the, uh, on the call was fellas look here. I don't know what the disconnect here was, but let me tell you this.
I'm going to, I'm going to own it. It's on me. So let's move forward. And right there, just by doing that, you've now disarmed any emotion attached to that conversation. Like I will, I will give you, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to take that burden away from you and own it as the leader in this conversation. And then, and then we can have a productive meeting from then on. It's simple things. Like we're not talking about cosmic rewrite the playbook stuff. We're talking about basic.
Eric (13:21.422)
human interaction on a day to day level. It doesn't need to be something that like I need to study for 30 years to do. It's simply this. The phone call was made. I said it was my fault. No one else needs to be responsible except me. Let's move on with business. And that's what happened. So when we talk about vulnerability, it really is like, you willing to be wrong? Are you willing to take accountability for being wrong? And I think that's my first thought. And I have another one.
Ben Hunter (13:37.926)
Yeah.
Eric (13:48.839)
I'm sure you got some response bands, I'll hand it back over. But I got another thought on this whole Garden of Jess Semonite thing I'd like to throw in when you got a second.
Ben Hunter (13:57.755)
Absolutely, man, that's good. So what I think about hearing you is like, what our people want is not perfection. People want somebody to be real. They want to follow someone who is real. so it's easy. And again, I'm hopeful that an audience that we have out there, young officers in the military, young NCOs who are listening, it is easy when you're in the job.
Eric (14:06.31)
now.
Eric (14:09.766)
Real.
Jordan Ames (14:12.449)
Integrity
Ben Hunter (14:26.565)
in the career of military where you think, and there is a culture of failure is not an option, a culture of you can't fail, which is not right. Yes, in combat, lives are at stake, but in training, you have to be able to fail in order to learn. I think we build it up in our heads is I'm not allowed to fail, I can't look weak in front of my soldiers,
in front of my team and so we try to have this persona of being perfect and when things don't go well, we'll spin our heads into a way of like, how can I color this in a way that makes me look like I'm not at fault even though I'm at fault when really we just need to be real with our team and say, hey, that one was on me. I will not do that again. I learned from that mistake. It's so much more powerful, right?
And it's funny how our sinful nature is to lie or to deceive, to make ourselves look better when really the much better thing for our team and our organization is to own.
Eric (15:36.391)
Hey, let's go back to the garden. This is not where I wanted to go, but it's just popped in my head. Let's go back to the garden and where the fall happened. Okay. What was the first thing that Adam, the first leader of household, man number one, what was the first thing he did when God showed back up in that garden and said, Hey bro, what about that apple? What's the first, do you remember? You guys remember the first thing he did?
Jordan Ames (15:59.01)
Yeah, wife gave it to me.
Ben Hunter (15:59.366)
He pointed at Eve. He's like, hold on, this ain't me.
Eric (16:03.685)
Yeah, he said, he said, not me, bro. Look right there. This woman you gave me. So did that thing. like from the very beginning, man, like our, so my point is our nature post fall, our natural inclination is to not want to take responsibility for it. Our natural inclination is the finger point. And I would say Heisman that thing, like stay away hot. Yeah. Hot potato. Get off that grenade. But I would say Ben, here's your t-shirt for you.
Jordan Ames (16:07.881)
Yeah
Ben Hunter (16:20.549)
That's right.
Jordan Ames (16:23.841)
Heisman that.
Eric (16:33.338)
fancy recon guys with big muscles. so take away this whole failure is not an option. And you need to rewrite the t-shirt that says failure in training. You're right about that piece. In training, failure has to be an option. Because if you're leading an organization and you don't push them to failure, how do you know their limits? How do you know what they're capable of? If you stay living inside the comfort zone, you're never going to grow. Growth only occurs outside of this.
Ben Hunter (16:47.045)
That's right.
Ben Hunter (16:59.717)
That's right.
Eric (17:02.075)
comfort zone inside that box. And you know what that dash line is that that holds you inside that comfort zone and keeps you from going outside of it. Fear. It's called fear, Ben. And so if you don't, if you don't push your team to fail in a safe, not to say a safe space, that's a dumb word, but like it, if you don't push your team to fail in an environment where they can recover, then you don't know what they're capable of doing. And so how can you employ them Jordan and our Marine Corps principles? How can you employ your team in accordance with this capabilities?
If you're not fully aware of what they're capable of doing, it doesn't make sense to me.
Jordan Ames (17:34.134)
And yeah, yeah, and how are they going to recover when they fail, when the risks and stakes are a lot higher, like in a combat situation? Because they can still fail. Like, there's still a performance thing, they can still fail. Like, they need to not be so weighed down by the fact they failed, because then they're going to be, you know, like in quicksand. Like, they're not going be able to get out of it. Like, they need to have the knowledge, the understanding, the motivation.
Eric (17:43.77)
Alright, they're going to.
Jordan Ames (18:03.167)
the whatever to know that when they fail, like, OK, just a mistake. I keep moving forward.
Eric (18:10.945)
know to respond to failure if they never failed before. That is a learned skill.
Ben Hunter (18:14.296)
That's right. Yeah, I absolutely want to.
Jordan Ames (18:17.057)
But they learned that from their leaders setting the example of like, look, I just failed. Here's what I did. Here's what I'm going to do differently. Yeah.
Eric (18:24.236)
MCDP 1 Jordan, that's our Marine Corps been doctrinal publication number one. It number one. Well, what about if they weren't eating? That's fair. It says then I'm paraphrasing, but essentially says the amount that a unit is able to learn is directly proportional to the mistakes a commander is willing to accept.
Jordan Ames (18:29.857)
one.
Ben Hunter (18:30.934)
written in crayon.
Jordan Ames (18:35.679)
Yeah, you were eating that.
Eric (18:50.33)
So if you create an environment where you're a zero defect, your Marines are going to walk around it or your soldiers or your airmen or your whatever are going to walk around on eggshells, not wanting to ever fail or make a mistake because the boss is going to hammer them. But if we create an environment and where mistakes are not only made, but encouraged because that is the fifth, that is the learning point. It's like not that you made a mistake, it's that you pivoted and you debriefed and you learn from it. And now I've got a data point called, you know, and
Ben Hunter (19:09.508)
That's right.
Eric (19:18.745)
There's two, there's two sides of this river. One's called knowledge and one's called wisdom. And they are bridged by the, the, the trust called experience. And so as you travel across this bridge called experience, you get to the wise side, but the mistakes are the steps you make. You learn every, you get to take one more step across this thing from knowledge to experience with every mistake. You can read all the pubs you want. All right. All the doctrinal pubs you want, but until you've done it and until you've
learn from making those mistakes, from failing, you aren't getting anywhere. You haven't gained that wisdom and you can't pass it on to somebody else. And so you absolutely have to fail and commanders and leaders at every level need to create environments, training or otherwise, in which their subordinates are pushed to the point that they learn something, also known as failure. That's it. It's that simple.
Ben Hunter (20:13.635)
Yeah, that's good. good. So, you know, we've kind of gone from being vulnerable and how that can spin into as a leader creating an environment where failure is not an option when failure should be an option in most, you know, not encouraging necessarily during times, particularly in the military when we're overseas doing in the Super Bowl.
But when we are in environments where we need to learn how to push the limits of failure, know, but creating that culture of vulnerability can help reduce that. That's super good. And so what I want to do here is kind of pivot into the second part of this topic, where we go from being vulnerable with our teammates to then Jesus, we see Jesus also going from being vulnerable, but also
outlining ways of being holding accountable our team in the whole trust but verify circumstance that I'm a firm believer in, trust but verify. I think I've got lots of stories and times where I had some really good conversations with the old adage, again, not a huge fan of it, but when you hear folks tell you, I feel like I'm being micromanaged,
I'm not a big fan of that, you know, that term because a lot of times when people feel like they're being micromanaged, it's probably because they need to be managed a little more closely. But, you know, I think there is something to be said with, you know, allowing some slack, allowing trust and empowering our teammates or our team and then always going back to check in.
Jordan Ames (21:41.761)
Yeah, I was just thinking that.
Ben Hunter (22:09.377)
And I think it's super, super important and a powerful tool as leaders. You know, I had a leader, he used to say, people do what you inspect, not what you expect. Which I think is in the same realm of trust but verify. So, Eric, I'm gonna throw this one back at you, man. What are your thoughts on accountability and how does that protect a team?
In a mission critical environment, you know where we are. We have a culture where our team knows that. Hey, the boss might check up on this. Let's make sure we follow through with what we said we were going to do.
Eric (22:53.988)
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think it's aligned nicely with integrity and the general definition of the doing the right thing, even when no one's watching. But like, if you know somebody's watching, guarantee you're gonna probably do the right thing a lot more of the time. Here's my thing about it. And so accountability from your peers or accountability from your superiors, my question for you guys is this, who did Jesus bring with him to the Garden of Gethsemane and why?
All right, so here's the application. Absolutely, trust and verify. You need to confirm what your expectations meet reality. But I'm just as or more interested in why and who he surrounded himself with in the Garden of Gethsemane. Now check this out. Peter, James, and John, okay? Three of the four folks, according to Matthew's gospel, originally called, I think all fishermen, definitely Peter, and the brothers of,
or the sons of thunder, James and John. So where else, why did he bring them in that moment? There's two other places, gentlemen, if you remember. One of them was the transfiguration. That was a key moment. Past, present, and future were there. Moses, Elijah, and Jesus himself was transfigured. And the second, that was a key moment. The second one was, or the third one was the raising of Jarius' daughter. So the first time that, I think was the first time he raised,
Somebody from the dead. He's like y'all need to see this. Peek this game. I got something to show you and I need you to remember this. But the question becomes that even Jesus for accountability, this comes back to accountability, even Jesus surrounded himself with three fellas that he poured into. And so the question for us is who are we doing the same thing to? Who's holding us accountable? So like while we're holding our teams or our Marines or soldiers accountable by checking on them, who have we as leaders?
surrounded ourselves with who are the three people closest to us that we're willing to be vulnerable with and we're asking to hold us accountable who we're sharing things with potentially that we're not sharing with anybody else. Jesus, if not showing anybody else him weeping in the garden or transfigured or raising the Jerry's daughter. No one saw that except those three. There's a reason for it. We don't need to get that on this podcast, but who are we asking to hold us accountable?
Eric (25:19.267)
If we're also saying that trust the verified matters, you know what saying? So who are our three 3am friends? Can we name them today? Can you get a piece of paper right now, write down or grab your phone since we're in the new age of like the millennial version of the Bible, also known as the one on your phone. so, can you take your phone or your piece of paper and write down by first name, three people that you can call at 3am, they're going to answer that call. And you also have shared.
Ben Hunter (25:23.52)
Thanks again.
Eric (25:49.014)
Hold me accountable to the thing, whatever that thing is, you know? And everybody's got their different vices. Is it leaders in the workplace? Hold me accountable to being this. Hold me accountable to being vulnerable. Hold me accountable to name your thing. So that would be my question. Why those three? And who are we holding accountable? Who are we having us hold accountable? To trust but verify that we're doing our job.
Ben Hunter (26:05.748)
I like it.
Ben Hunter (26:11.061)
Yeah, that's a good spin. That's a good spin. Right, like as leaders, we have to make sure we're leading ourselves. And so part of that is like ensuring we have people around us to help keep us accountable. It's not always about looking at our team and making, holding them account, which is obviously super important. So I like that. That's important that we kind of take a step back and like, okay, I know how to keep my team accountable. How do I make sure that
I have a team that's going to help keep me accountable and helps reduce burnout, keeps endurance. You can continue in the fight by having a team around you that surrounded you with folks that can help you when you need it. Jordan, what do you think?
Jordan Ames (26:57.505)
Yeah, as Eric was talking, I was thinking of proximity. And I think it's kind of why organizations, why the org chart flows the way it does. Sometimes you have that leader at the top, and then there's like eight or 10 different leaders below him that are all peers, but they all report to that one. But even in the military,
Ben Hunter (27:02.707)
Hmm.
Jordan Ames (27:26.177)
Our whole org chart, like from, I'll just use the Marine Corps, Marine Division, only has like three or four regiments. And the regiments only have like three battalions. And then the battalions have three rifle companies or weapons that support the rifle companies and an H &S company. So what I'm getting at is the leader has below them only a few.
Eric (27:37.793)
you
Jordan Ames (27:55.916)
that are very close proximity to him, that he needs to be trusting, but also verifying what they're doing and holding them accountable. And if he's a good leader, he's seeking them to hold him accountable as well. He doesn't have, our battalion commanders don't have 14 companies that they're trying to lead, right? I think that's,
just by design on humans. We've learned in organizational leadership over time that whenever we just have a few that we can truly be close with, close in proximity, really develop, focus on, they can hold us accountable. That's a much better way to have a larger impact than if we try to do a whole lot of things and develop a whole lot of people.
Eric (28:27.617)
you
Jordan Ames (28:55.073)
So yeah, think Eric hit the nail on the head with bringing out the example of, yeah, who were they? was Peter, James, and John. And these were the three Jesus poured into more than he did the whole 12. And not to mention, we know that there were many others who were considered Jesus' disciples. But there was the closest 12, right? We know it's more of a close team that then went out and really developed the church.
obviously with Paul as well. But those three close ones, I think that gives us a great example of a proper organization and how you pour into certain individuals.
Ben Hunter (29:41.086)
Yeah, no, that's so good man, you know, I think for the audience out there and leaders Of all type particularly young leaders, you know, I think it's there's some some good stuff here some good meat on the bones for you to chew on when we talk about a balanced leader who knows how to be vulnerable Which builds trust within your team?
and balancing that with also holding your team accountable as we talked about in the story of Jesus and Gethsemane, but also as leaders, then how do we keep ourselves accountable? So we're coming like full circle here. So good for folks to kind of take home and think about and pray about. One, as we always talk about being abiding in Jesus and alignment with him. And then that helps us as we
Produce fruits of the spirit where we have gentleness, kindness, goodness, self-control, and we are creating an environment where folks trust you, your team trusts you, and we have created an environment where we can be vulnerable with our team, where we can say, hey, I failed there, and how that actually strengthens the team. It doesn't weaken your leadership. It actually strengthens it.
Which again is counterintuitive to our sinful nature, but super important where we're honest and open and transparent and then you know going back into accountability where we have the ability again where our team trusts us We have created this environment where we can go to our teammates like hey I asked you to do this thing I came back and checked on it and I didn't didn't quite meet my expectations I need you to follow through with this And then you know for our team to be able to take that I know
when I had leaders I worked for and they had that little talk with me. We all had leaders that yelled and screamed or were always mad, right? It just turned into white noise. But you had the leaders who you respect, who came to you and gave you a little talk, didn't have to raise their voice, and it was like the disappointed dad. you're just like, man, I messed this one up. You're right. That is a sure sign that you've
Jordan Ames (31:57.599)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (32:05.181)
created a good relationship with your team and that they are just crushed that they did not meet the expectations of their leader, right? And I've had an opportunity to work for all kinds and I've been in both spots where it's like white noise, he's yelling again versus sitting down and having that conversation with me and I'm like, gosh, I will never fail this man again. And then making sure as leaders we have...
We have those, as Eric said, three people we could call at 3 a.m. and they would pick up the phone and they would help you, they would pray over you, they would give you advice, they'd mentorship you, discipleship. so, super, super point, great point for Eric to bring up of like, not only do we hold our team accountable, we gotta make sure we've got...
we have some things in place and people we know to keep ourselves accountable. Man, this has been a great conversation, team. Any closing thoughts or kind of anything you want to leave the audience before we cut off for this episode, gentlemen?
Jordan Ames (33:17.857)
I'll let you go first, Eric, if you got anything.
Eric (33:19.88)
Sure. Now, the only last thing I was going to say is like once that I was thinking about it when you were just talking to them, once that culture is created in our team, that comes from the top down in which extreme accountability, extreme ownership, once the team embraces and adopts that mentality, you no longer will have to debrief them on what they did wrong because they're going to start to debrief themselves. Okay. And they're going to start to point out and like, I could have.
Ben Hunter (33:44.317)
That's right.
Eric (33:47.388)
I'm going to admit that I did this because the boss's reaction was stoic. was baseline. He didn't get a rise out of him. didn't lose his mind. You got maybe the disappointed dad, but then they're going to start to realize, I can take some ownership of my mistakes and I'm going to learn from them myself. And then you bring in these things called lessons learned where it's group learned from mistakes. And then you've created a culture where now Jordan and Ben and the rest of us that have led organizations, you don't have to go in and point out mistakes and be the bad guy.
So now not only are people debriefing their mistakes, you don't have to point them out. And so now you get to be the good guy. Cause when they make them, you, could actually turn their mistakes into a positive experience for them. great job guys. I'm glad we learned that. Let's pivot. How are we going to incorporate it? I love it. So now where it was like, man, you did this wrong. You did that long. you know, Mr. Inspection micromanagement ban, the word you use, you flipped it on its head because Jesus taught us accountability. Shocking. It makes sense again.
what he taught us if we apply it, that now the leader of the organization gets to uplift and encourage his team through mistakes rather than point out and create and creating a negative environment and what some people today would call toxic. So how cool is that?
Jordan Ames (35:05.195)
Yeah, that's awesome. I just want to touch again, like, and Eric just did a little bit about micromanagement. Because there can be a fine line between trusting and verifying and slipping into micromanagement. Certainly, as Ben mentioned earlier, sometimes based on someone's performance, they need a little micromanagement. But that micromanagement should be a graceful, loving way to develop them, not to just,
They need my thumb on them, so I'm putting my thumb on them.
Eric (35:37.999)
and transient. Micromanagement is due to a lack of training and it's not always their fault.
Jordan Ames (35:43.202)
Yeah, no, great point. it's not always their fault. right. You had brought up Jaco Willink earlier, Eric. And I love that about his messaging. It's always a leadership solution. And I also love, I share this with my kids. I took it from Jaco, discipline equals freedom. after I saw that, I don't know, on his t-shirt, he said it, whatever.
I've seen that in principle throughout scripture. People are doing it. Look at the Proverbs. Times are your discipline. You're going to have more freedoms. I say that a lot to my children. even say to my children, when you discipline yourselves, I don't have to. So then you get more freedom. I don't have to.
micromanage you if you're doing what you're supposed to do, so to speak. So yeah, that's the goal, right? Is that your team, your children, whoever it is, whoever you're trying to develop, that they get to the point to where they're taking the ownership, they're disciplining themselves, and the verification has occurred. It's happened.
Ben Hunter (37:03.899)
So good, so good guys. Yeah man, this is good team. Hey, so audience out there, remember Jesus was the perfect servant leader. We need to be more like him every day. Being a servant leader, being vulnerable is not a bad thing. It's actually a really good thing and can help build your team and build a culture that allows for your team to excel.
Jordan Ames (37:05.035)
Great topic, Ben. Thank you.
Eric (37:07.62)
Yeah, great job, man.
Ben Hunter (37:30.191)
Vulnerability is not a bad trait as a leader. It's a strong, good trait as a leader. So take that one and think about it. Become a better leader through Christ-centered leadership. Again, pick up the book. Follow the link below. We pray the book is a blessing to anybody that reads it. Thanks again to Eric and Jordan for joining us today. And we will see everyone next time for the next Red Letter Leadership Podcast.
