Jordan Ames (00:02.742)
Welcome to another episode of the Red Letter Leadership Podcast. Glad you could join us. Today's topic is on love. Now that may sound kind of gushy, kind of not leadership, because we're supposed to be dominant and like leading from the front and demanding of our team and accomplishing the mission and just taking care of business. But I'd argue very foundational.
to doing that is the need for us to love our team. And our choice to love our team will allow us to be selfless. And selfless is a huge aspect of leadership. So as we get into talking about love, let's define it. Because I think the world that we live in has
really, for lack of a better word, defiled, but just plain and simple redefined what love is according to scripture. So arguably love, the true definition of love requires that we have an opportunity to hate or plain and simply not love. So if you don't have an opportunity,
to not love somebody, you can't truly love them. Let me take you back to the Garden of Eden, give you a little example there. So God, He creates the heavens and the earth. He creates man in His image, both male and female. He places them in the garden for them to work the garden. And it's this beautiful garden. All these, He gives them all the
the green plants for food, he gives them all the food that they could ever want. But there's this one tree that he tells them you cannot eat of that tree. So just picture this, right? Picture this enormous garden of all these beautiful things. And then the owner of that garden says, but this one tree, you can't eat of that.
Jordan Ames (02:30.616)
Okay, that is my one rule that I have for you is you cannot eat of that tree, regardless of how pleasant it is. Right. And so if they were to disobey God and do that, that would be an act of not loving God. But God wanted us to have that freedom to love him, because without that freedom, again, we can't truly love him. We can't love him in the way that
He loves us. So there has to be an option to not love Him. And He put that option for us in the garden. Of course, we all know the story. Ammonive failed at that and we've been failing at it ever since. But God has been pursuing us and redeeming us because of His unconditional love for us.
Okay, so for us to love God, what does that mean? Because Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment is to love God and that the second is like it, to love others. Well, Jesus also tells us what it means to love Him. In John chapter 14, He very plainly says that if you love Me, you will obey My commands. So we could assume that if we're not
obeying his commands, then we're not showing him any love. We can say we love him all we want, but if we're not obeying his commands, it just doesn't add up. Our words and our actions don't match.
Right, so if to love him is to obey his commands, what's the first command after he tells us to love him? Well, it's to love others, right? So I know as a parent, I've told my children, like if they've asked me, you know, what do want for Christmas or my birthday or how can I help you because, you know, especially for me, and I know Ben,
Jordan Ames (04:35.564)
go on a lot. Like how can my kids help while I'm gone? Like just listen to your mother and help her even if she doesn't ask for it. Like I don't need gifts from my children, right? I just want them to obey and do what I ask them to do. That's all the love I need. And I think it's why are we like that? Because we're made in his image and he's like that.
The way we love him is to obey him. All right, so I'm gonna read out of a passage in Matthew, and before I start reading, I wanna give you a little context of it. So it's in Matthew 20. Jesus is teaching this parable like he often does, and it's a parable of an owner of a vineyard who goes out to seek workers to work his vineyard, right? In the first verse of chapter 20,
He states that the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. So this whole passage is about the kingdom of heaven. And so before I read verses 9 through 16, I'll just put the early part of the passage in a little bit of context. So went out early in the morning. And it sounds like in this passage, it was like a 12-hour workday.
So early in the morning, it was like 6 a.m. He gathered some workers, they agreed to work for Adonarius for the whole day. So they come, they start working. Well, in the third hour, which was about 9 a.m., he goes out and looks for some more. He gets some more. He went out again at the sixth hour, the ninth hour, then at the eleventh hour, so you're thinking like 5 p.m., it says in...
Verse seven, he goes out and he sees people that had been standing there doing nothing all day long. He says, why has no one, or why have you been doing nothing? And they say, because no one hired us. So he invites them to come work. So they work for an hour.
Jordan Ames (06:48.6)
All right, so picture that. Now, I'm gonna start reading at verse nine. The workers who were hired about the 11th hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.
These men who were hired last worked only one hour, they said, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day. But he answered one of them, friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you.
Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous? So the last will be first, and the first will be last.
Course, this is a very good description of the kingdom of God. Whether we start working for the advancement of his kingdom, work in his vineyard early in our life, or whether we come to Jesus very late in life and we start working, our reward is the same. We receive the inheritance of heaven. Romans 8 17 says that we are co-heirs with Christ.
That's a pretty incredible description.
Jordan Ames (08:34.156)
So this this topic's about love and how it is true love is not only unconditional, but it can seem unfair. But it's not, it wasn't unfair to the early workers.
It's really unfair to the one who is distributing the love.
Jordan Ames (09:01.528)
So I want to get in, I want to bring Ben in, and I want to kind of talk about that. I want to talk about what love looks like in leadership. I want to talk about what it really means as unconditional and unfair.
And then I want to kind of compare and contrast, you know, work environments from a leader who is truly loving those he leads versus one who may be hard demanding, seeking only fairness.
Jordan Ames (09:43.224)
And so Ben, so clearly this passage talks about how the kingdom of God is not about being fair.
Right, so as we think about it as leaders, whether we think about it in our home, as we're both husbands and fathers, or in the workplace, could you provide some insight into what that really looks like? How things that might seem unfair could actually be producing a healthy environment?
Ben Hunter (10:22.929)
Yeah, that's a great topic and probably a tough one really, you you think about it from a perspective of leadership. A little bit of counterintuitive. You know, I kind of compare it to a lot of times as leaders of an organization, we will find ourselves having to give more attention
to those who maybe produce less, maybe who are struggling, and because they need additional help, whether that's motivation or merely just maybe a little discipleship, mentorship. And so what you begin to create
is a potential for your team to see you focusing on folks who are producing less, who are struggling to do what they need to do versus the top performer who's like turns everything in early, gets things done and is helping out, who doesn't need all the attention, who doesn't get, you know, doesn't see or feel like he's getting
the attention that he deserves in terms and sees that other folks on the team are producing less, getting more attention. I see a little bit of a similarity there, least kind of initial thoughts of having an environment within your organization and being a leader where things appear to be unfair. But I think it gets back to
as leaders, the responsibility of communicating effectively to our team, making sure that we are self-aware that, I am having to pay attention and work with this particular group or this particular person or this particular team more than I am my top performers because I gotta get them up to speed. I gotta get them up to my top performers. And so,
Ben Hunter (12:48.346)
Being self-aware of that, I've been in a situation for sure, I think, where I didn't realize I was having to do this until I started hearing whispers of like, your team is a little frustrated that you're giving all this attention to these folks who are not the top performers. I think it's my initial thought, Jordan, is I see a little bit of similarities there with having to focus on folks.
When you compare it to the story from Jesus, bringing folks who came in last, who weren't willing to work until the last minute, and bringing them up to the same level as the folks who were there from the get-go, signed up right away and like, let's go, let's get to work. I'll do it for that amount of money. The money is a reward for the work. I don't know, I hope that's helpful. I hope that makes sense.
But that's the first thing that comes to mind.
Jordan Ames (13:52.022)
Yeah, and I love your point about how sometimes you just, the underperformers, the ones that may seem like they're not working as hard, maybe because they're not working as hard, it could be just because they need a little extra mentorship than the ones who are performing well. Right? And it would be better across the board for the team.
Ben Hunter (14:14.479)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (14:19.32)
in whatever mission that they are assigned to accomplish and for the future of their team culture, if you're able to bring up those underperformers up to par with the high achievers, right? So yeah, you mentioned about communication and sometimes you even talked about your own example of hearing the whispers.
Ben Hunter (14:36.398)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (14:47.446)
Yeah, that's great insight right there. Because yeah, just need to pull in a side one of your top performers and be like, look, like for the team, I need you to keep grinding. need you to keep doing what you're doing. If you feel like it's not fair or if you are struggling or feeling burnt out because you feel like you're carrying other people's load, like, let's talk. Let's like you are one of my top guys. Like talk to them about that.
and get them bought into the fact that you need to spend some more time bringing some other people up to speed or investing in them in a certain way. Because again, that's better for the whole team. And that's we're talking about. That's love, right? That's when you're talking about a non-family or, know, spousal relationship type thing. We're talking about just loving people.
Ben Hunter (15:33.56)
right.
Jordan Ames (15:44.76)
That's exactly what we're talking about. Like setting ourself aside, cause what our flesh would want to do is just being like, immediately, dude, you're not cutting the mustard. All these guys are much better than you. Why don't you go find somewhere else to go? Why don't you go find another team to be in and forget about the strengths and abilities that he truly may have to bring to the team, but maybe they just need developed. They just need pulled out a little bit. Yeah. And so
Ben Hunter (16:11.32)
That's right. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (16:13.694)
So the really, who is all this really unfair to? It's unfair to the leader because he's just, you know, wanting the team to perform, wanting them to do what they're supposed to do. It's arguably, it might seem unfair to that top performer in the team that's doing what he's supposed to do.
But, and I want to get to it from the passage, one thing I was thinking about, in the long term, the culture that that leader is developing by taking some strain, being inconvenienced to spend a little more time with this other individual, it's going to be better in the long run for the team.
Ben Hunter (17:12.452)
That's right.
Jordan Ames (17:13.496)
That seems like at the time, it seems like it's unfair to the high performer, but in reality, that is fair. That is fair for the team.
Ben Hunter (17:25.796)
Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think the old adage you hear, your team's only as strong as your weakest link, only as fast as your slowest guy. And so there's a perspective. And again, I think this is telling the story to your team. Like, hey, we've got some folks here that can outpace the rest, but I got to get.
as a team, gotta get across the finish line. We gotta be able to this mission with everybody. so, you know, one, telling the story, like, why you potentially are gonna need to focus on the not top performers and getting your folks to buy in on it is a super important aspect of leadership and, you know, helping your team understand, like,
that perspective of ensuring. then there's potential for getting your top performers to help out the not so top performers as well. you're doing leadership development in them and seeing their potential for advancement by seeing them teach, coach, and mentor folks who need the help to get the team up to par. So there's a lot of
great little nuggets you can pull from that as far as building the team and making sure everybody can get across the finish line and accomplish the mission.
Jordan Ames (19:04.034)
Yeah, absolutely. was thinking about like, so this parable is about that one day when the owner is hiring workers for his vineyard. Let's think about with how the owner is being generous and the environment, the work culture and the environment he's created during that first day, how that could
Ben Hunter (19:13.101)
BOOM!
Jordan Ames (19:32.254)
spill over to the next day and the day after that and the day after that because arguably, know, I'm thinking of one thing I've learned in the military, maybe you can relate, is like I've always said when you're getting screwed over, you know, things are going your way, you know, whatever your higher headquarters is doing this is
demanding this, somebody somewhere is getting hooked up and vice versa. When you're getting hooked up, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over. So for me, when it comes to opportunity to take leave, I always tell people take it, because you may want it another time and you're not going to get it. Don't be mad when, don't feel guilty when you feel like you're getting hooked up, because
Ben Hunter (20:20.482)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (20:27.426)
there's going to come a time where you're going to feel like you're getting screwed over and somebody else is getting hooked up. just take the wins when you get them and deal with the suck when you have to, right? And I kind of see it here. It's like, what environment is the generous landowner creating for the future of these workers? So with him being generous, these ones that are grumbling, if they would just be grateful that they're working,
and not standing out on the streets doing nothing, they're eventually going to more or less feel and receive the generosity of the landowner that they think is only going to these guys that came later in the day. Because the landowner even says, he's like, I am generous.
One, I have a right to do with what I want with my own money, and I'm generous. That doesn't mean I'm only generous to these people. I'm just generous. I may be asking you, I paid what we agreed. I held up my end of the bargain, but I'm being generous over here. What is it to you with how I run my organization, with how I accomplish what I'm accomplishing?
Ben Hunter (21:32.375)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (21:51.192)
But the fact that he says he's generous and he showed it, I believe that's going to create a healthier work environment for the future. And they're going to have this idea of like, OK, well, maybe one day I worked a little harder than the next guy. But that's OK, because we're all together. We're working for the same purpose. It's all right if I end up working a little harder.
Ben Hunter (22:18.262)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (22:21.506)
But then thinking of flipping that script, what if this landowner was just hard and demanding and he wasn't generous? And so he gave the ones that started early in the morning, he gave them their agreed upon denarius. And then he proportioned it based on the work they did. And so these guys that showed up the last hour of the day,
Ben Hunter (22:21.557)
Yeah, I think.
Jordan Ames (22:51.128)
I mean, it would almost be a waste of time for them to walk to wherever the vineyard is, work for whatever, an hour, a couple minutes, and then the landowner would be like, look, you kind of wasted my time. Don't really think you're worth anything. Maybe if you're interested, show up tomorrow or whatever. What if he just treated them more poorly than other workers? What kind of environment?
what might that say to the other workers? They might say like, he's a hard man. I'm not sure if I want to work for someone who's so demanding. Now, obviously,
We're talking about specifically how to love, how to do things from a perspective that may seem unfair to your team, but in long run, you are doing the best for your team because you're working out of love, generosity of your resources, of your time, certainly selflessness. But for everyone, for the listeners, there's obviously good, prudent,
wise ways to handle situations where workers are needing to be called upon, demanded of, so on and so forth. I love this lesson because I think there's a lot in there when it comes to love and leadership. Do you have anything to add to that, Ben?
Ben Hunter (24:29.6)
Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, I think, you know, it's just important that again, he is fair across all, right? And so providing the same and not necessarily, I guess it depends on how you're quantifying, right? Because somebody worked less, they got the same pay. So, I mean, I think for a leader's perspective, it's just like, you know, I'm going to focus on this guy because he needs more help and I got to get him up to speed.
How can I then also make sure I take pause and take a look at my high performers and give them the praise or reward that they deserve to keep them going and keep them motivated? And again, I think there's an opportunity there to get them to helping, bringing the team up to speed on where they need to be. there's always opportunities to find your next leader.
among your subordinates that way through coaching, teaching, and mentoring. yeah, I think as leaders, we're showing love by providing the same with everybody in some type of way, whether that's attention or mentorship or coaching or our time and pulling folks in to give them the one-on-one they may need.
through reward and praise or one like, you're not quite fulfilling the obligations that you need to be filling. So yeah, no, it's a great reminder of maintaining a posture of love to everybody on your team, regardless of maybe the level of output or talent that you have to love them all in some kind of way.
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (26:27.798)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's very easy.
as we're surrounded by the world, the world's perspectives.
And that's why it's so important for us to stay in God's words because the world brings so many different perspectives and with it, so many different standards. So what may be unfair to me may not be to Ben or somebody else. So think of your team.
There may be some people in there, based on your actions, that they think it's fair, whereas others think it's unfair. And if we were all digging into God's word, and we were all seeking him first and students of his word, we'd understand that that is the standard, not our made up standards of what we think is right or wrong or fair or unfair. And
Jordan Ames (27:39.761)
That's a huge point in this passage too, because he even says in verse.
me see here. says in verse 13 to 15, he answered one of them, friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous? So basically, Jesus, obviously this is about the kingdom of God.
He's basically saying, doesn't God the creator have the right to do what he wants with his own resources? Certainly we all agree. But God is also the one who has set the standard in his word for how we are to love, how we are to lead, how we are to live. So for us to...
come up with, that's unfair. It's honestly more of just a feeling that we have based on some, maybe some social norms around us. When really if we boil back down, we go right back to what started out this podcast, we talk about truly what is love, how is it defined?
And we define it as obedience first to God. And out of that obedience, it means to love others, which is truly putting them before ourselves unconditionally, meaning there is nothing they can do to keep us from loving them. That's unconditionally. So you put that in a team, a work environment.
Jordan Ames (29:44.192)
If we're seeking to serve our team and there's nothing that they can do to mess up so badly that we just don't care about them anymore and we wanna see them go.
that commitment to love is going to cause us to want to invest in them, to try and build them up, to discipline them. Because the Bible even says that love disciplines. So yes, there may be some discipline there, but it's coming from a position of love. And as we talked about already in this podcast, that may seem unfair to others. That's why Ben hit it at that we need to communicate that.
And certainly, if our whole team is digging into God's word, they're going to buy in a lot faster to what we're doing and how we're trying to love and serve the development of the team for the purpose of accomplishing that mission they're assigned. So there's a lot in here. I think we could probably go on about this topic. But as we close out,
My biggest challenge to you is to find ways where maybe you're not loving so much. And I mean unconditionally loving. There's probably a lot of you watching or listening that when you think of love, you're thinking of it as a feeling. All right, again, that's how our society, that's how our world.
wants us to think about love, all the whatever, music, TV, it all pushes towards that. when you look at right down to it, what scripture says about love, it is a choice. It is actions on our part. Like first, loving God is obeying his commands. takes intentionality, that takes action. And if we apply that same type of love in our leadership,
Jordan Ames (31:56.536)
It can only produce a healthy work environment. You cannot have a toxic work environment if the leader is committed to loving his team. Because that commitment will lead the leader to taking some strain, inconveniencing himself to make sure members of the team are up to speed in whatever productivity performance they need to be. But it will also love them.
so much that they'll be willing to discipline them, even if that person might hate them for a season. Maybe I'm talking to parents right now, where you loved your kids so much that you know you're teaching them the right thing, you're holding them to a standard, and there's a season where they're just hating you for it. But that reaction to them is not going to cause you to
Be okay with something that could lead to their destruction because you love them so much All right. It's the same obviously applied a little differently in the art of leadership But it's the same thing with with a team work culture, so that's my challenge for you this week is one dig into God's Word and truly study love a little bit and See how you can apply that to your leadership
All right, thanks for joining us. We'll see you on next episode.
Ben Hunter (33:30.619)
Thanks Jordan.
