Jordan Ames (00:02.269)
Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Red Letter Leadership podcast. This podcast is all about helping you grow in your leadership, but not only grow in your leadership, specifically growing closer to Christ and becoming a Christ-centered leader. Now, if you've been listening to us for a couple episodes now, you certainly have heard of our book. If you're new,
Our book is titled Red Letter Leadership, Leadership Lessons from the Life of Christ. And it's a compilation of over 370 leadership lessons that myself, Ben Hunter, who's on this episode, and our other co-author, Eric Albright, we teamed up and we wrote these lessons from Matthew 1 all the way through John 21. We didn't skip a passage. We wanted to draw a leadership lesson.
out of every single passage within the gospels. Why? Because we believe they're there. And we also believe that us doing that made this one of the most, if not the most comprehensive study on the leadership of Christ. And not just his leadership, but pulling lessons out of the situations that surrounded his life, which is one we're going to talk about today. Today, the topic
is titled Upholding Your Values. And we're going to look at a very key character in the, really the life, the death really of Jesus and the resurrection. It's a very pivotal moment that we can draw some really good leadership lessons out of. His name is Joseph and he's from the town of Arimathea.
The passage we're looking at is out of Luke chapter 23, starting at verse 50. And it's a short passage, so I'll go ahead and read it. And then we'll just kind of talk a little bit about the context before we bring Ben in. Now there is a man named Joseph, a member of the council. We talk about the Sanhedrin council. A good and upright man who had not consented to their decision and action.
Jordan Ames (02:27.677)
So the Sanhedrin Council's decision and action, they were the first ones to try Jesus whenever he came in after he was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane. They came in, they tried him very illegally, not according to their own customs and laws. And this man, Joseph of Arimathea, verse 51 says, had not consented to their decision and action. So he's a member of their council, but like,
He did not agree to their justifications, to their punishment levied on Jesus. So he came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus's body. Then he took it down, took it down off the cross, wrapped it in linen cloth, and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid.
So this is Joseph of Arimathea's, this is his tomb. It was preparation day and the Sabbath was about to begin. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes, but they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. So this is.
The Jewish Sabbath, even to today, is Saturday on our calendar. So this is crucifixion. We know from our own tradition, Christian tradition, was on Friday. It's Good Friday. It's getting to be evening time. And on the Jewish calendar, the day starts in the evening. So whenever they have dinner on Friday night, that is the first meal of their Sabbath day. So it's getting ready to start. That whole...
celebration recognition of the Sabbath is getting ready to start and Joseph again a member of the Sanhegan Council that started this whole process of putting Jesus on the cross He goes to Pilate and says, know, I'd like to have his body So he takes his body. He wraps it in linen cloth and he places it in a tomb He does all this before the Sabbath starts because according to their customs and the commandments in the Old Testament
Jordan Ames (04:49.799)
That would be work. They can't do the work on the Sabbath. Same thing with these women who had come with Jesus. They wanted to put these perfumes on Jesus' body, but the Sabbath was starting, so they're going to have to wait until Sunday morning. And if you know the story, we know what happens whenever they go to his tomb. All right, so.
What we're talking about is really the whole idea of Joseph sticking to his values. It says in verse 51, I already mentioned that he did not consent to their decision and action. And it says towards the end of that verse, and he was waiting for the kingdom of God. So arguably, reading through the gospels, there is a common theme with religious leaders.
that they are more focused on upholding their traditions than listening to truly what God's Word is about, which is what Jesus brings to the scene. But Joseph is a man whose mind is open. Arguably, he's a critical thinker, and he's putting true values from God's Word above the religious traditions of the day. Even so, he's well-versed.
He is immersed in those traditions. So I want to start off, Ben, by just asking you. So Joseph, as a member of the Sanhedrin, what do you think Joseph was risking whenever he went to pilot and asked for Jesus'
Ben Hunter (06:36.01)
Well first, thanks Jordan, great topic man. I'm glad we could do this topic today for the podcast. Super interesting and what a good thing to just kind of discuss and folks to listen to about times when we know we need to make a decision that may be unpopular to those around us or get ridiculed but we feel convicted to make the right decision. I feel like
Joseph, he was risking being ridiculed. There was much more than that even from those times. He was risking potentially being punished and put to death himself. He was risking a lot.
He provides a great example of...
Ben Hunter (07:35.85)
sticking to your conviction, your morals, and making the right decision over what may be the unpopular decision or decision that's going to cause repercussions.
Jordan Ames (08:00.528)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, yeah, especially in that. mean, what happened whenever Jesus was crucified? Like the disciples weren't hiding. Right. The Bible tells us they're not hiding. Joseph, by this overt action of asking for Jesus's body, certainly there were witnesses seeing Joseph do this, and they probably knew
Ben Hunter (08:12.104)
Right.
Ben Hunter (08:27.795)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (08:29.191)
I don't know, maybe based on like how he was dressed or maybe they just knew who he was being a member of the council. They probably like, okay, there's something different about him. I would guess, I don't know if the, I don't recall later on past this, if the Bible says anything about what, you know, what may have happened to him, like loss of reputation, loss of influence. I mean, the whole mob, the crowd, right?
Probably poor people in the crowd, probably wealthy influential people. They all are challenging crucifying. This was a collective across different levels of society. This was a collective thing like, yes, this guy needs to be put to death. Obviously, we know based on scripture that a lot of that came from the religious leaders. They were the ones pushing this, getting the crowd going.
Ben Hunter (09:05.754)
Right. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (09:27.175)
But clearly, not all of them. And I think that's, I love the fact that this little, the context of this little passage is in the Bible. Like, God is telling us something. Like, the world, the world has fallen. They don't, the majority of them do not do what I want them to do, right? They don't go in the direction I want them to go. But that,
Ben Hunter (09:42.354)
Right.
Jordan Ames (09:56.274)
That is not cause, that's not an excuse for you to join them. Right? And this guy is a great example of someone who's like, look, I've devoted my life to the scriptures and learning it and teaching it and knowing it. But more so my heart truly desires the kingdom of God. And he saw something in Jesus that matched up with what the kingdom of God, well, what he believed the kingdom of God was.
And that threatened the power and the status of his peers, arguably some probably his best friends. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those relationships were torn, you know, in his credibility. like who knows what happened to him if he was no longer part of the council after the situation, you know, what happened?
Ben Hunter (10:34.918)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (10:47.688)
Yeah, we never really know what happens. to your point, you have a guy who spent his whole life getting to a certain level and building a reputation and being a part of the council. And he sees something in Jesus. He feels convicted and is willing to put all that on the line in order to do what he feels is right.
So yeah, I I think it's a great example of being willing to sacrifice some of the things that we've accomplished and maybe some status that we have in order to, I don't know, buck the system in order to do the right thing. Yeah, this is a great example. I could think of a couple times, at least in my military career, where I had to
Jordan Ames (11:36.296)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (11:47.121)
kind of make a decision and stand my ground in certain things that were not a popular stance to take. And there were some challenges with that for sure.
Jordan Ames (12:01.043)
Yeah, that's, that's, would like to get into talking about that. wanted to ask you, um, to share specifically your own experiences or maybe just maybe you were bystander to somebody else who, you know, uh, committed upheld their values, whatever the KB. I'd love for you to share some of that in kind of, cause that's what this is all about is like reading a story like this, getting this lesson and how we're applying it. And, certainly this podcast, how we're encouraging our listeners to
Ben Hunter (12:20.091)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (12:30.195)
to uphold their values and stand firm.
Ben Hunter (12:32.901)
Yeah, know, I think about this story in the Bible, it reminds me of a time, you know, again, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal by any means and I'm not the perfect example of a leader, but there was definitely a moment specifically where I had to kind of put myself out there. And honestly, you know, for me, I didn't think I was
because I was so convinced and convicted that this was the right stance to have, I didn't actually think that there was going to be any type of kind of pushback against me. that really was the part of this situation that really surprised me and kind of took me back. now I have look back and like, man, wow. So I don't know. I could say, once I tell the story, it makes sense, but
I think even if I knew I was going to get kicked back and ridiculed, still wouldn't have changed what I did. This all started. For those who listen and listen to my background, we talked about our bio and our military experience. Back in 2010, I just...
just recently transferred over from the enlisted ranks, went to OCS and commissioned as an officer. So I spent from 2001 to 2009 in the 75th Ranger Regiment, 3rd Ranger Battalion at Fort Benning. By that point, I'd been on, I don't know, 10 plus deployments. My wife and I had both made a determination, like, it's time.
We wanted to do something different and we knew the military was calling for us at that time. So we went up and made a decision to make a long-term military move and commission as an officer. And so I went to OCS and then after OCS I went to the infantry officer course at Fort Benning. And part of my decision of becoming an officer, I had a mission. I was driven to
Ben Hunter (14:54.586)
teach others what I had learned from the last eight years as an enlisted soldier and all the combat experience I had seen to help impart the incredible leaders that I got a chance to work for as an enlisted soldier and just understand and I'd seen what Wright looked like from so many, everything from lieutenants, captains, majors, colonels,
that I worked for, was like, okay, I know what Wright looks like. I want to go into the officer corps and help show what Wright looks like and also help impart the perspective of an enlisted soldier. Jordan, I'm sure you had a similar kind of mission in your head. I'm driven to do this because I've seen what Wright looks like and I know there's officers out there that need to understand what Wright looks like. So I was in infantry officer course, and this will be interesting. I wonder if I get any...
folks who were there with me, feedback from this episode. But there was a gentleman, so we had just started the course. know, in the first week, it's like, you know, do all the physical stuff, PT tests, and, you know, at that point in my career, and, you know, for most, you know, hopefully most lieutenants as you're coming, it's very competitive. Like, you want to be the...
best of the best lieutenants. want to have the number one PT score. You want to have all the number one test scores. you know, coming from a place like the 75th Ranger Regiment, you know, I definitely felt like I needed to represent. You know, I wore the scroll on my shoulder. had the Ranger tab already and all the other lieutenants, you know, in the infantry officer course weren't Ranger qualified. They hadn't been to a unit yet. There's only a few of us that were prior enlisted. And so I know I kind of had a
reputation that I had to uphold being from the 75th Ranger Regiment. So I was very competitive. I was very driven. I went all out on the PT test, scored really a decent score, and definitely maxed it out. At that point, they had the extended scale on the PT test, so I wanted to get as high on the extended scale. So I had done pretty good. so I think we were doing briefs or something, and the PT scores had been
Ben Hunter (17:14.725)
sent out and so everybody was kind of it was between classes or a brief and everybody was kind of staying in the hallway talking about what they had done on the PT score and somebody had told me that was there was this one guy that had beaten me and again I fully expected because obviously I was older too that there were some young stud lieutenants you know from West Point or ROTC that you know that had that could beat me so any I knew that there would be some
Jordan Ames (17:35.059)
yeah. Yeah.
Ben Hunter (17:45.249)
And so, you know, there were several, I think, that had gotten hired, but there was this one guy they had mentioned that had beaten me and they said, oh, he was prior to listed Marine. And I'm just making the connection with the Marines. this will be an interesting story for you. So, yeah, and I was like, oh, wow, who is this guy? Prior to service Marine, okay, good competition. I'm always down for good competition, And so they had, somebody had pulled.
Jordan Ames (18:00.721)
Nice.
Jordan Ames (18:11.591)
My question is, is why is he now joining the army? That's the only question I have.
Ben Hunter (18:16.857)
That was probably a red flag for the get-go, to be honest. So somebody had pointed this guy out to me, and I looked at him, Jordan. This is going to sound bad, but I totally judged the way he looked. And I was like, OK. Folks who've been in the army and military long enough know there are some people who don't look fit but are physical specimens. are not a lot of them.
Jordan Ames (18:19.714)
Ha ha!
Jordan Ames (18:23.795)
Yeah
Ben Hunter (18:46.468)
But there's a few of them where they're like, they don't have the physique that you would think of, but they can, are fast, they're strong. It's just very natural. Maybe they grew up an athlete and they just, but they don't have the physique. So, but I looked at this guy and I'm like, no way. He was a little heavy. Uh, and he just was a little, you know, he just didn't, uh, he was a little frumpy. Let's just say that. He didn't, didn't like have the, you know, chiseled Marine look like Jordan.
Jordan Ames (18:56.113)
yeah!
Jordan Ames (19:15.571)
Yeah, and my broken arm, not broken arm, but shoulder recovery,
Ben Hunter (19:15.684)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh, so I was like, this doesn't add up. This doesn't make sense. But you know, again, I'm always down for competition. So I was like, all right. Now PT during Ibolik, when infantry officer forces, they do pretty good PT. Like you're with your platoon. You have a captain who like runs PT with some NCOs who lead it and it's good PT. Like they do a really good job. And of course it's a lot of running, a lot of cardio, but we did a lot of other things too.
And so it was, know, PT hour was like prime time and I'm like, let's go, I'm ready. Yeah, and right before this I had competed in best rangers, so I was in good shape. so I remember the next morning we did PT as a platoon and this guy's in my platoon. And so I'm like, all right, I gotta keep an eye on him. I'm gonna make sure I can beat him and whatever we do, you if
So we always start out with a run. We're doing runs. I'm like, all right, well, if they do a release from here, I'm going to make sure I'm positioned so I can outrun this guy and all this stuff. Well, we get about a mile in, and I can't find him. Like, he's gone. He's disappeared. He's not in the formation that we're running with the whole platoon. And he's the only one missing. So I'm like, what in the world? That's weird. So I didn't think about it. And then we get back. do.
I think we ended up doing a five mile run. get back and sometimes we'll do push-ups, sit-ups, and some other stuff and cool downs. While we're back from our run, all of sudden I see him. He's back in formation. But I never saw him run with us and I never saw him. I was like, man, that is weird. I wonder what happened. I don't know. Next morning, fast forward because this story could take a long time, probably more time than we have.
Ben Hunter (21:13.763)
I started to be, just red flags started coming up. And so we'd go on another PT session. I was like, I'm gonna watch him like a hawk the entire time. And I had actually, was another guy in our platoon. was a Buds dropout. Like he got injured during Buds or something and they gave him an option to come to the arm. I don't know how that works, but he was a stud, he was good. And him and I got along real well and I was like, hey, help me keep an on this guy. Like he just, I don't know, something's not sitting well.
And sure enough, we're running and I see him run off while in the middle of our run and goes in the wood line and like disappears. And then we run back, we get in formation and he come, I watch him run back into formation as we're finishing the run. And I'm like, what, what is going on with this guy? And I told my buddy, he's like, yeah, I saw him. I don't know what's going on. That's so weird. So then I started kind of talking to some other folks like, hey, do know this guy?
Jordan Ames (22:00.18)
Wow.
Ben Hunter (22:12.139)
and everybody knew him. They had gone through OCS with him. The majority of the people in my platoon and across the entire Ebola knew this guy from OCS. He was very personable. They all liked him. He had a great family. And they were all just excited. was in the class together. And it was just like, yeah, this guy's great. We love him. I was like, yeah, but they're like, no, you must be.
You must have the wrong guy. He would never do something like that. was like, well, I'm pretty sure I saw him, and my buddy was looking, and he hasn't been finishing PT with us. I don't understand, but he beat me in the PT test. So fast forward. I have a bad sense on this guy. And we're in the field, and we actually did a field exercise, and we're actually doing PT. We're going for a run in the field. We get on some tank trails. We're running. We're all together.
And this guy, he does it again. He runs in the wood lines, kind of far from the tank trail where there's clearing. And then he runs across the clearing in the woods and goes behind a tree. And I start yelling while we're running. I'm like, hey, what is he doing? Why is he not running with us? He's over there hiding in the woods. And everybody can barely breathe. We're running hard. And I'm just like, I'm furious. We finish this run. We get back to in a formation.
Jordan Ames (23:28.52)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (23:31.905)
And I see him. He's literally sneaking through the wood line to get back into formation with us. And I stop our tack. The captain had moved off, and we were running our own little cool-down session. And I get in front of the platoon. I start yelling. Anger comes over me. And I'm like, you all see this guy. He's literally – as I'm yelling, he's trying to sneak through the woods and go from tree to tree and get in formation. I'm like, look at this guy. What is he
Jordan Ames (24:01.511)
Wow.
Ben Hunter (24:01.782)
This is not something we can stand for. This guy's gonna lead a platoon in Afghanistan. We can't have somebody like this leading our formations, leading infantry soldiers into combat and not be willing to go through the things that we're going through. And I've seen him skirt through this this entire time. And there was like one, like my buddy from Buds, and I think one other guy, they're like, yeah, this is not right, guys. Somebody needs to say something.
So he comes back in, I confront him in front of everybody, like, hey man, I don't know what you're doing, but this isn't right. You need to go talk to the captain. We can't stand for this. I don't know what's wrong with you. you're hurt, go to sick call. But you need to be able to hang with us. And he didn't really say much. like, I don't feel good today. I don't feel good. I've got a bug. And some of his buddies were like, yeah, Ben, you need to calm down, man. You're a little too intense, bro.
This guy is a good guy. He's just not feeling well today. I'm like, no, this is not it. This guy is unethical anymore. He's just not doing the right thing, not upholding the standard, and we can't have him leading soldiers into combat. fast forward. I can't remember the time spread, but then I get called into the company commander's office for our company in Ebola.
Jordan Ames (25:11.729)
Right, right, yeah.
Jordan Ames (25:18.067)
100%.
Ben Hunter (25:30.965)
He's like, Ben, need you to come see, know, somebody told me, hey, the company commander wants to see you. So I come in and I get told to go into the conference room, and there's already like 10 of folks in my platoon at the table. And I walk in and I'm like, okay, hey sir, I heard you needed me. He's like, yeah, Ben, have a seat. And there's like, you all these other guys. And like, Ben, I'm hearing that you're causing some problems within your platoon and you're trying to outcast one of the guys in the platoon. And these gentlemen have come to me and said that,
They believe that you're wrong for calling him out and that you're targeting him and you're not a team player. So I'm like, I feel like I'm on another planet. I'm like in Twilight Zone, man. I'm like, like how is this? I'm the one being persecuted right now. And I'm, all I'm doing is standing my ground against a guy who's refused to uphold a standard, a physical standard and is cheating.
Jordan Ames (26:14.695)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ben Hunter (26:30.684)
literally just cheating his way through the course. And I'm the only one calling him out. now I'm on the carpet, as they say in the military, and I'm in front of the commander, and I've got a table full of people against me. And I'm just like, this is wild. I was very respectful, of course, company commander, and I'm like, hey, this is what I'm seeing. This is not good.
This is what I'm seeing. then everybody around the table is like, Ben, you got to calm down, man. Like this guy has a great family. He's served our country already as a Marine. You're going to ruin his life. You're going to ruin his family. And I'm like, look, I'm not trying to ruin anybody's family, but I'm not the one making the choice to cheat. He is. He's ruining his life and his reputation and his family. Not me. He's making the decisions to do the right. So I mean, I,
Jordan Ames (27:16.861)
Yeah, make the change, man. It's not about you. Yeah.
Ben Hunter (27:22.932)
Jordan, I tell you, man, it was a fascinating situation for me to like, tables be flipped on me as I'm trying to just stand my ground. Like this guy is not what the army needs to lead soldiers. Maybe he can do something else, but he cannot finish a PT session that we have. know, any physical training we do, he's not finishing. We had even done a 12 mile ruck march and I was like, this guy's, if he's cheating on stuff, you know, he's gonna cheat on this. I watched him, well, I was trying to win.
Jordan Ames (27:50.839)
yeah.
Ben Hunter (27:53.44)
the ruck march of course be the first one across the line so I can only watch him for so long. The only guy that ends up beating me is an Egyptian Navy Seal. This guy was like, this guy was ridiculous. He beat me by several minutes and I ended up getting like two cramps in both my hamstrings about mile 10. So I had to like limp him. But I didn't win. I came in second which is the first loser so not good enough.
Jordan Ames (27:54.515)
Of course.
Jordan Ames (28:15.058)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (28:23.374)
yeah.
Ben Hunter (28:24.567)
But the whole time I'm like there's no way this guy finished. I remember seeing him after the Ruckbarch. He wasn't even sweating. I was just like oh my gosh. to wrap up this story, it's fascinating. I actually knew the Batallion Commander and the Batallion XO of Ibollic. I competed against them in Best Ranger when I was enlisted.
They were our best ranger team as officers. I was the best ranger. My brother and I did it together. And so he knew I was in the course. We would see each other passing. We talked for a minute. But I was still a student. And we kept it very professional. But he called me into his office. And he had heard some rumblings about it, I think.
And I didn't bring it up to him first and he brought it up to me. He's like, hey Ben, I'm hearing some stuff. Like is this guy like the gent and they're saying like you're causing problems, but I know you, Ben, that doesn't sound like you. And I was like, sir, here's the deal. This guy is cheating through the course. Nobody can prove it. Everybody loves him, but he's not, hasn't, yet to see him finish any physical activity that you give in this course. Like all the standards to the physical, you know, he has found a way to cheat.
He's like, Ben, well, what do you think I should do? And this is a great leadership lesson, right? Like a battalion commander talking to a second lieutenant, you know, but he knew me and he knew my reputation as a prior enlisted guy in range regiment. He entrusted, he's like, I want your advice, you know? And so I was like, wow, okay, well, sir, I think honestly, you need to retest this guy. He needs to do all the fun. needs to redo the PT test, the push-ups, sit-ups and run. He needs to redo the ruck march, the five mile run.
all the key gates that you have to pass, he needs to get retested because he hasn't finished any of them, sir, I guarantee you. He's like, that's gonna ruffle some feathers, know. All the people that are over the platoon have said he's finished everything. I was like, sir, if you retest him, you're gonna have to have cadre along the course watching him 24-7 because he's really good at this.
Jordan Ames (30:44.275)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (30:46.398)
He's like really Ben you think you know I was like sir. I'm just telling you you just This is what I recommend to answer sir just just do the PT test and just see how that goes and then see if you need to do more, but I'm telling you He's gonna find a way to cheat well It was known that I like he was having to do redo the PT test everybody I had like ten people come up to me and like Ben I can't believe you're doing this to this guy make him retake the PT test, and I'm just the whole time like man
I probably told him like, shut up. That's crazy. I'm not in the business of having buddies. I'm in the business of learning how to lead soldiers into combat as an officer. And so I was serious about that. It was a big deal to me because I had been in circumstances in combat and knew what it was like to be on the front lines in Afghanistan and Iraq.
questionable ethics and morals and you have to be able to like there's a clear line and there's got to be a clear standards and you've got to be able to go above those standards to lead soldiers into combat and so sure enough man this guy they made him retake the PT test he barely passed the push-ups and sit-ups because all the cadre were grading him like they had like consolidated the cadre and like they counted his push-ups counted his sit-ups you know
And so on the two mile run for the PT test, we had that one mile track at Fort Benning, which I know you remember from Captain Career Course, the dirt trail that's a mile. And it was dark. It was early in the morning, so it was super dark. They made him put on a PT belt or a PT vest so they could always see him. And after the first mile,
Jordan Ames (32:22.119)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Hunter (32:40.145)
He did the full mile. His time was like something really not fast at all. He got half way around the track. They had put Cadre in the wood line through the whole course to watch him. It's crazy. The guy took the reflective vest off of him. He stopped running, took the reflective vest off so people couldn't see him, and he cut across the field.
Jordan Ames (32:44.989)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (32:52.635)
ridiculous.
Ben Hunter (33:09.049)
of the one mile track.
during the PT test. No joke. So the caduare are like, whoa! And they come running out the wood line like, stop, what are you doing? You're cutting the course in half. You're cheating. And so yeah, it was like, it all came to fruition, man.
Jordan Ames (33:12.883)
What?
Jordan Ames (33:27.431)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (33:34.764)
It was fascinating because then I remember our captain that was in charge of our platoon, he came up to us, gave us a big speech, like, hey, this is not right, you know. And I don't even think he said anything about me. you know, and then, of course, there was, you know, guys that were not on my side for a while that kind of came up like, Ben, I'm sorry, man, you were right the whole time, you know, like, we kind of questioned you and we ridiculed you. And yeah, man.
That was that was situation where it was very strange for me to like stand my grass there my morals and you know Call somebody out on it and be ridiculed and put in front of people and told I'm being I'm doing the wrong thing and You know and then it kind of came out the way it did but that was a big lesson for me to you know and I think it's important if When you're going whatever you're doing in your profession if you are like if you are driven
You're mission driven, you know what you're there for, you know why you're doing what you're doing, and it could be anything. And then you have that clarity, that moral clarity, and of course, if you have a relationship with Jesus, you're gonna have that moral clarity. And then be able to see things that are not right and be able to stand your ground and be able to do the right thing, as opposed to...
you know, maybe kind of floating through life, kind of going with the flow, don't want to ruffle feathers, I'm just kind of just trying to get my paycheck, I don't want to make anybody mad, you know. And so there's something to be said for just, you know, being driven in what you do and leading in a way that, you know, that's morally, that has a moral standard and that you are able to stay in your ground when things don't look right and do the right thing, you know. It's a fascinating story.
Jordan Ames (35:24.36)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (35:24.857)
I'm sorry I had to be a Marine.
Jordan Ames (35:27.667)
Well, that was before you met me and I hopefully redeemed your idea of what I'm reading.
Ben Hunter (35:31.727)
That's right. That's right. Right? What a great finish of going full circle, coming back to bidding as a. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (35:38.823)
Yeah, especially after all that. After all that, you saw something in me. You wanted me to be a partner for a PT competition. Like what if I just took off into the tree line, like Ben come this way, we can cut the corners.
Ben Hunter (35:49.443)
you
Ben Hunter (35:53.147)
You know what? Now that you said it, I took a big risk by making you my partner in the PT competition that we won. But no, man, like full circle, right? Like I had a Marine cheat and then I'm gonna get the Marine partner and we won the best PT competition. Yeah, yeah, so.
Jordan Ames (36:01.715)
Yeah!
Yeah, seriously.
Jordan Ames (36:14.141)
Yeah, that was good times there. Yeah, well, before we wrap up, just want for listeners, I want to kind of pick it apart, pick your story apart a little bit. Just to like draw out some of what I think are really good lessons on this topic of upholding your values. And so for listeners, Ben, what drove him was not what caught his eye was seeing this
Ben Hunter (36:26.277)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (36:44.211)
former enlisted Marine, now an Army officer, not looking the part, but his scores were showing that he was beating Ben. So that initially would caught Ben's eye. And so Ben's like, all right, well, hey, maybe he's legit or whatever. But when he starts seeing him truly not upholding the basic arm, they're not, mean, yes, they're Army values of integrity and whatnot, but they're just like,
even more important than just being army values, they're like basic leadership. And this dude, obviously Ben had a lot of experience in combat. He joined the officer corps so he could take his experience and knowing that he is brought up as a good leader because he's already at this point,
Correct me if I'm wrong, Ben, but you're already at this point a Christian and you're gaining your leadership from the word. yeah, similar to me is like, I wanna have that influence as an officer with men in combat and outside of combat to be a leader the way that Christ wants us to lead. And I wanna be able to influence some of America's best men. So that's where Ben's at. And then he sees this and he's like,
Ben Hunter (37:45.177)
Yes.
Jordan Ames (38:10.599)
This guy is going to be in front of, again, some of America's best men. He cannot be doing this. So for Ben to call him out, that had nothing, that would not affect Ben's promotion, advancement. Like there was nothing good to come to Ben's career because he was calling this guy out. But Ben knew that was the right thing because this dude is going to put people's lives at risk.
Like that's serious. His fellow lieutenants didn't really see it that way. It's like, it's not a big deal. Like, he's a good guy. if you're leading, if you're a leader at any industry level, whatever, what will get you in trouble is by thinking, I'm a quote unquote good person. So therefore just brush under the rug.
some other things. No, not at all. That is so dangerous. And the ones that are going to face the consequences are the ones that are going to be led. And that's the whole concept behind servant leadership is like, you put yourself, your own ambitions, your own interests, your own comforts. This guy clearly didn't put his comforts aside. If he would have,
Ben Hunter (39:10.295)
Yeah, that's right.
Jordan Ames (39:38.014)
He would have spent more energy getting in better physical shape than the energy to like sneak through the woods, rip off his vest, like, how can I cut this corner? It's like, dude, just run the path. You get a sucky score, like go train harder. What's the, man. But yeah, so like that's the.
Ben Hunter (39:53.134)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (40:01.069)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (40:05.787)
I think that's the big takeaway is like we have to stand up, uphold our values. Even if, especially when they don't come back on us, like we don't do it because we're going to get something out of it. We do it for the good of others, whether we're directly leading others in this case, Ben's actions.
served the future soldiers this dude was gonna lead. So what ended up happening with this guy? Did he get like kicked out, changed job?
Ben Hunter (40:40.109)
right
That's a great question. I've told this story with people and that's always kind of the question that comes back. During that time, I remember the battalion commander, it's like, the battalion commander of Ebola was like, this has never happened before. I'm not sure what's gonna happen here. I think they made him recycle and I think if he failed again, let him get in shape and try again. mean, honestly, what should should happen is like, this is unethical. He is not fit for office.
Jordan Ames (40:48.437)
You know what happened?
Ben Hunter (41:12.441)
to be an officer, he needs to be kicked out. But I don't know exactly what happened. Yeah, it was a strange period of time where they got all these folks in the officer corps and they're gonna be infantry officers. What if they don't make it as infantry officers? Where do they go? Usually if they can't keep a physical standard, they would just retrain them during a cycle break, get them fit, get them into the corps. But for somebody like this, I honestly have no idea.
Jordan Ames (41:13.043)
Yeah.
Ben Hunter (41:42.326)
And no, think, you know, good takeaway from this too. And again, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal, but I think what's important is our motives. The motive was not for me to spotlight me and say, look at me, I'm a good officer. Look at him, he's a bad officer. The motive was higher than, it was more than me and more than him. It was the soldiers we serve. was the profession of arms, right? Like it was bigger than both of us. And I'm like, this cannot stand.
I didn't want attention, trust me, for this and I got ridiculed enough. I think it's important for us to take a look at our hearts and our motives and why are we doing what we're doing? What's the greater cause? And serving, right? Serving our people, serving an organization bigger than us. That's a really important part of being a leader.
Jordan Ames (42:42.291)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I want before we before we wrap up again, I want to share a very quick story. It's of my platoon sergeant who had a had a moment of lacking integrity, but very quickly, whatever happened, it was like within 15 minutes, he flipped. It was like, wait, no, we're not doing that. We're doing the right thing kind of thing. So let me share. This is 2007 in Afghanistan, all about Afghanistan.
First Marsau company out the door. They had high hopes for our deployment and all the good work that we're gonna be able to do. Sadly, about half of my platoon was a part of an international incident. They ended up going to, you know, UCMJ type of processing and court of inquiries and.
It was terrible situation for Marsok, for my company. We ended up only being in Afghanistan six weeks and then we were hoisted out of there not to return. Other Marsok companies went, but not ours. There's a phenomenal book written about it called A Few Bad Men by my company commander at the time who's a phenomenal leader, like phenomenal leader. I hope to have him on here as a guest. He endorsed our Red Letter Leadership book.
Ben Hunter (44:07.478)
be awesome.
Jordan Ames (44:07.539)
Yeah, so the situation is this is March. The international incident thing that I was just talking about was it was an ambush that happened that our platoon got ambushed. That was March 4th, 2007. My team, my team was not on that patrol. My team did a mission. March 9th. We wrap up that mission. We come back. It's probably like in the middle of the night by this time. It was like a late evening.
you know, late evening, late night type of mission. We come back, it's probably around midnight or one. And we know there's some stuff going on because of the March 4th incident. Things are weird, but we still, we executed this mission. Obviously we were told to. It was a very, very highly sensitive mission. So I'm not, I can't even get into like the details of it, but we come back and we're in our, team room.
and our platoon sergeant walks in and he's pretty much like, hey you guys, you know what you did tonight? And we're like, yeah. mean, it was more of a information collection mission. like the accomplishment of it is yet to be determined based on what was collected and everything. But he comes in and like, you guys know what you did? Like, yeah, we know exactly what we did. He goes, never happened. We're like, sure did. We just did it. Like it definitely happened, right?
Ben Hunter (45:36.939)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (45:37.009)
But he's like, don't talk about it. If you get asked about it, it never happened. And me, there's another couple solid Christians in my team. He shuts the door, platoons are on leaves, and we look at each other. We're just like.
We can't lie. Definitely, what's he talking about? What's going on? So we're kind of stewing over what he just told us. This never happened. Not knowing things that were happening in higher headquarters and stuff, communications and talks and stuff. But thankfully, because we were very adamant, fellas, it did happen. If we get questioned about it, we're not going to lie. We're not going to throw any of our
Certainly, platoon sergeant, anybody in our leadership under the bus, we highly respect them to this day. I think they're great leaders. Thankfully though, he came back probably 10 or 15 minutes later and was like, hold up. What I just said was wrong. I'm not telling you, tell the truth. Make sure you tell the truth. And that was awesome. One, because we had the support of our leadership telling us to do the right thing.
So that was like a weight taken off our shoulders. Like, thank you. We were about to do the right thing because we knew it was the right thing and it could cost us something, who knows? But thankfully, like I said, 10, 15 minutes later, he comes back and he's like, no, you guys tell the truth, do not lie.
And I say all that because, again, can't really, we don't have time to talk about the whole situation. Like I said, there's a great book written about it, but our leadership took a lot of heat and careers ruined over the situation, all that. But my platoon sergeant, though he had a momentary lapse of integrity, he recognized it and rectified it. So we're humans, like we're going to,
Ben Hunter (47:32.713)
covered. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (47:36.852)
Lack integrity, not apologize when we should apologize. Things are going to happen. But when you snap to when God convicts you and that Holy Spirit is talking at you, you need to make things right. Again, this is all about upholding our values, biblical values, Christ-centered values. So Baron, with all that, man, what's the last word? What do you want to challenge the listeners to do with this?
Ben Hunter (47:49.173)
Alright, bye bye.
Ben Hunter (47:55.177)
Yeah, that's good.
Ben Hunter (47:59.926)
Yeah, challenge the listeners, right? So be confident in what you're doing, in your morals, especially when you have a relationship with Jesus. Use that to be confident and stand your ground, even when you are afraid that you might be ridiculed, things might not turn out well.
In the end, it'll turn out God will use that for His glory. I would just challenge everybody because when I think about my circumstance, I was very confident as a performer enlisted in special ops and I wasn't worried about what people think. So I don't know if I would have had that same confidence if I didn't have that background, but I would just say, I hope I would, but know.
A lot of came from the confidence that I had in what I had seen and what I had already experienced. Use your experiences that the Lord has brought you through and what you've experienced in life and use that to build your confidence as a leader and stand your ground when you know that you're doing things morally right.
Jordan Ames (49:15.769)
Awesome, that's such a good word. All right, this has been a great discussion. For those of you that don't have the book, you can get it at www.redletterleadership.com forward slash book. We have a link where you can download about a month's worth 31 lessons from the book to check it out to pre-read. But there's also a link there where you can get it off Amazon.
Ben Hunter (49:21.971)
Yeah, good time Jordan. Great topic man.
Jordan Ames (49:46.429)
But that's what this podcast is all about. We're grabbing lessons from the book, and we're expounding on them. We're discussing them. We're bringing some of our own stories. And it's all for the purpose. The book and this podcast is to help you grow in your leadership ability and grow closer to Christ. Because when we get closer to Christ, we become better leaders. It's a byproduct of getting closer to Christ. So thanks for listening.
Subscribe to this channel and we pump these out every week. Also, please tell your friends, family, coworkers, people you go to church with, tell them about it and give us an opportunity to add value to them. We'll see you on the next episode.
