Jordan Ames (00:01.474)
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Red Letter Leadership Podcast, where we want to dive into lessons from the Red Letter Leadership book, expound on them a little bit more. We discuss these topics, and we are looking to help you grow closer to Christ and grow your leadership capacity as you do that. Today, we are
pulling lessons out of Matthew 7. So at the very end of his Sermon on the Mount, in verse 24 of Matthew 7, he says this, Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. So we want to think about today, what is our foundation from which we lead? We lead our families.
We lead in the workplace, ministries, what is that foundation? Or is it a solid foundation? So we are all weak in some areas.
Okay, and if we don't have a solid foundation like Jesus is talking about in that verse, we're going to crumble. Our house, so to speak, is going to be swept away. But today we have a very special guest who has years of experience and has even written a book on helping specifically men have a strong foundation. So our guest today is Don Ross.
He is an author and teacher with over 20 years experience pastoring men and leading men's groups. He is the founder of Manhood Tribes, guiding men to strong, healthy masculinity by showing them how to build the life-changing brotherhood they've always hoped for. His best-selling book, How to Be a Man, gives men a clear vision of manhood and a roadmap for building strong male friendships.
Jordan Ames (02:05.388)
Hey, Don, thanks for joining. Welcome to the show, the podcast.
Don Ross (02:10.165)
Yeah, thanks Jordan. I'm glad to be here, man. Appreciate you having me on.
Jordan Ames (02:13.282)
So before you just drop so much wisdom for us, could you just tell us a little bit where Don comes from? A little bit about your background, your childhood, like your testimony when you got saved.
Don Ross (02:27.543)
Yeah, absolutely. So I live right now in the Raleigh, North Carolina area, but I actually grew up even further south in the heart of the Bible Belt in Mississippi. I grew up in what I would say was a good home and kind of stereotypical of the kind of the deep south Bible Belt. We were a Christian home, but our faith didn't really.
go very far beyond the boundaries of Sunday mornings. It was going to church was sort of a, you know, just a normal thing that everybody around us did. And we did as well. we would certainly say that we were Christians. but what it looked like to practice that was not much more than just attending church on Sunday. And so I kind of grew up in an environment where, being a Christian was really kind of about like following the rules. It was very much a.
what I would now call a moralistic version of Christianity. There were certain things you could do and certain things you couldn't do. And as long as you were checking the right boxes, then you were good with God and good to go. that was kind of the, that was the whole extent of what it meant to be a Christian. It probably was not really until early, my early teenage years that I started to realize that that, wasn't really actually the message of Christianity. That was just kind of what the culture had absorbed around me. And so,
being able to kind of understand the gospel for the first time on a youth ministry trip of the fact that I was a sinner and in need of a savior and that I couldn't do anything to actually fix myself or my own position or standing before God, but that Jesus, through his death and through his sacrifice on my behalf and on the behalf of everyone else, had paid that price for me. And all I had to do was receive that. And it seemed like...
Jordan Ames (03:45.429)
Okay.
Jordan Ames (03:58.475)
Amen.
Don Ross (04:05.067)
the easiest bargain in the world to me and the kind of life that I wanted anyway. And so I said yes to that and have been doing my best to try to figure out what it means to follow him really ever since then. So 30 some odd years now of walking with the Lord and trying to figure that out. actually had gone to college planning on being a doctor and then ended up going into ministry instead, which was a kind of a wild transition.
Jordan Ames (04:07.81)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (04:30.082)
Yeah.
Don Ross (04:31.853)
Not because I couldn't pass freshman biology. I actually really did well. I was like on my way to med school and God just kind of got a hold of me and Really kind of changed some perspective on my life I remember he said very specifically to me through a conference speaker one time that the idea was if If I'm gonna butcher the the quote from the speaker now, but he basically just said God's never gonna do God's never gonna call you to do something that you're capable of doing on your own
basically meaning the purpose of your life and for the sake of his kingdom is going to be bigger than you. If it was all, if it was just kind of up to you and your abilities, it would be about my kingdom and not about his. And so, that was a, that was kind of an earth shattering statement for me. That was definitely kind of what my plans had looked like. And, so I shifted course and got into ministry. I've been in, I was in vocational ministry, full time for a little over 20 years.
working as a missionary, working as a pastor, went to seminary, know, kind of did that whole route and really, really loved it. But wherever I was, I kind of gravitated towards working with men, whether that was actually my job or not. That was kind of what I really enjoyed, men's ministry and just kind of diving into what was going on in the real lives of men. And just began to notice that like across the board, guys were struggling and churches were really struggling to be able to help men.
you know, kind of figure out what it looked like to walk with God. Men's ministries were really done poorly if they were done at all. Church men's groups were always fewer in number than the women's groups were and less well attended than any other kind of group was. And I just kind of began to wonder like, why is that? What's the deal with why churches do such a bad job with reaching men? And that kind of set me on a course.
from my own journey as well of just trying to figure out what does it mean to be a man? How do we do that? Well, what does it mean to be a man who follows God? Well, and and why do we have such a confusing time around that in our in our culture and in our church world today? And that's kind of how I ended up doing what I'm doing now. So I left vocational ministry or at least in the church world about four years ago and kind of broke out to start this thing called manhood tribes where I am helping men to kind of
Don Ross (06:45.303)
build what I would call the best men's group ever. It's what I call a tribe. And it's really be able to be a part of something that actually helps get a man to a place where he can overcome the major obstacles in his life and actually have a faith that feels like it matters and is significant and actually brings real results in his life. So yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Jordan Ames (07:05.058)
Awesome. I love that. And I love that. I love that passion. And one of my passions, just really over the past year, because of the Lord really opened my eyes and convicted me, is to help people believe that He wants to do more through us. And like you had mentioned earlier, having a vision that we can't do on our own.
I call it a God-sized vision. like, yeah, that is almost a definition of faith. Like if we could do it on our own, we don't need him. So I love that. And I love the vision you have for manhood tribes. So obviously this is the Red Letter Leadership Podcast. So let me just ask, how has Jesus' leadership example in his life and his words
Don Ross (07:47.349)
Exactly.
Jordan Ames (08:04.694)
the situations surrounding his life, how has that shaped who you are today as a leader, and your past leadership experiences, and you moving forward?
Don Ross (08:17.101)
Gosh man, tremendously. I mean, we could spend several episodes probably just talking about that. But yeah, know, gosh, I have, I would say I really have sought to try to mold my life according to his as much as I possibly could. I find Jesus to be the most compelling man in all of human history and also just the person who I most enjoy spending time with. I think he's a fascinating person.
Jordan Ames (08:21.154)
Long show.
Don Ross (08:46.381)
He's really wonderful and joyful to be around. He's incredibly loving and wonderfully kind. He's absolutely brilliant. And, you know, I talk about him like in the present tense, which I think for a lot of men in particular is a little weird because we tend to think about Jesus as a figure from history. But Jesus is alive and he's present to us through his spirit.
Jordan Ames (09:06.572)
Yeah.
Don Ross (09:11.281)
and, know, I think over the years I've learned, just how to be able to relate well to him and, and doing so has just, you know, convinced me time after time that I just, really want to be more like him in every way that I possibly can. So yeah, that's, that's a short answer. as short as I can make it when I could spend a whole lot more time saying everything about that.
Jordan Ames (09:29.418)
That's perfect. I love your perspective of speaking in the present tense when describing them. That's awesome. And everything you shared is what this podcast is all about. It's a perfect fit. So going back to the lesson from Matthew 7 that I opened up with, using that analogy and the idea that the Bible brings up a lot as Jesus
as a cornerstone. So we think about, you know, construction workers going in, laying the cornerstone, and then from there building this foundation. If Jesus is the cornerstone, what must be part of the rest of the foundation if we're going to have a well-built house?
Don Ross (10:19.04)
Yeah, well, I, I think it's, I'll say it's a little bit of a trick question. Okay. It's really not at all, but, here's how I'll answer it. So I think the answer as he kind of clearly gives it there and the sermon on the Mount is, know, basically what he says, like whoever hears my words and puts them into practice. it's, it's the, kind of those like companion, you know, partnership of things, hearing my words and putting them into practice.
I think the challenges, and this is where kind of the trick question comes into play is that whole idea of putting them into practice. I think for men in particular, where we get into trouble is that, if we've, if we've grown up in a faith context, and, been a part of, the church or some kind of faith based community for most of our lives, we've done a lot of hearing of the word, right? We're very familiar with Jesus's teachings. we've absorbed a lot of it.
Jordan Ames (10:50.306)
Yeah.
Don Ross (11:11.402)
but actually putting it into practice gets a lot harder. And I'm not just talking about like, you know, being kind to your neighbor or like, you know, tithing or some things like that. Although there's plenty of guys who struggle with just doing those things. But you know, when we really get into the difficult things of like, how am I gonna love my enemy? You know, like what is it actually gonna look like for me to live in such a way that I am praying for and loving my enemies? We are in a culture in a society right now where
we have a lot of enemies, right? The culture pushes us into being divisive and angry, and really even hate-filled a lot of the time and the way that we see other people in our culture. And so what, you know, how am I going to actually put into practice Jesus is teaching that I need to love my enemies and pray for the people who are persecuting me, who are against me. so that's the challenge I think for most guys is to say, okay, you like, you've got to put those things into practice. Well, how are you going to do that? Like,
Jordan Ames (11:43.116)
See ya.
Don Ross (12:10.156)
Practically speaking, what is it actually going to look like for you to put those things into practice? Not to just say like I want to be the kind of guy who can do that, but to actually become the guy who can do that. You know who can regularly love his enemies, who can pray for the people that persecute him, who can live sacrificially, who can put his wife first, you know all of the things that we see in the New Testament that we see from the teaching of Jesus. The way to be able to make those things happen is really difficult and this is where I say to guys,
Jordan Ames (12:19.938)
Mm-hmm.
Don Ross (12:38.668)
and I think this is kind of, you know, roundabout now kind of getting to the heart of, think what you were asking was that unless you have a community of men around you who are challenging you and pushing you to be able to grow in those areas, you're not going to make it happen. Like you're just not the things that we are up against in this life, that oppose us in terms of being able to actually live like Jesus are stronger than we are. Right. We're, up against forces that have been doing this for hundreds and thousands of years.
uh, on the spiritual side of things who are actively working against us being able to live the way that Jesus did. And, um, you know, newsflash guys, like you're not going to win the battle against those things by yourself. You've got to have some other men around you who are going to help you overcome the big obstacles in your life so that you can actually live a life that models the teachings of Jesus. So in order to be able, you know, the foundation is hearing, hearing his words, putting them into practice.
But the practical tools for being able to actually build that kind of foundation require a few things. And I think the missing ingredient for most men is that they don't have a community of guys around them that are helping them be able to do that.
Jordan Ames (13:47.522)
As you were sharing about community, was thinking of the 12 disciples. They were a tight community that traveled almost everywhere with Jesus, and they failed, made mistakes, grumbled, right? All else. And we have to remember that even one of them never returned to the fold, right? Judas made his mistake, and he never
Don Ross (14:01.032)
Yeah, all the time.
Don Ross (14:12.276)
Yeah, didn't make it, yeah.
Jordan Ames (14:16.482)
came back to the fold. And actually, it's one of the lessons in the book, like, even Jesus had a Judas. Like, if you're a leader, and you're trying to be like, oh, it's my responsibility to get these, you know, men in the context of men's ministry, or talk about it's my responsibility to get them going in this direction and to disciple them and to do these things. It's like,
Yeah, but even like be encouraged that you're not going to be perfect. And still not not everybody in his group was like bought into everything he was doing.
Don Ross (14:51.412)
Yeah, you're not going to get it right 100 % of the time. Yeah.
Don Ross (14:59.754)
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think you're spot on and I think it brings up a really good point and honestly is really what community is meant to be about, right? I think that the issue there is that when we as men make mistakes or when we're making some choices that are causing us to veer in directions that we don't really want to go, who are the men that we have around us who are actually going to call us on that? Like
who knows my life well enough that they're living close enough to me, in close enough context with me, that they can see me making those mistakes, they can tell me, hey, you're being a bonehead and you need to do something about it. Like, this is not really who you are, this is not the path that you actually wanna be choosing. Like, let's help you figure out how to course correct. Most guys don't have any other guys in their life that are living close enough and in close enough context to them that would be able to have the
Jordan Ames (15:35.746)
Yeah.
Don Ross (15:57.677)
permission, let alone the knowledge, you know, to be able to actually say that to you, to be able to say, dude, I think you're headed down the wrong path here. and I think that's kind of the point, you know, one of my favorite stories from the gospels, about the disciples in particular is, James and John, and when they come to Jesus or, know, when their mom comes to Jesus and it's like, Hey, when you come in, when you come into your kingdom, like, can my boys sit at your left and right hand, you know, basically like, can they be the greatest, you know, guys in your kingdom? Like, can you give them the spots of honor?
Jordan Ames (16:17.036)
It's not what it was.
Jordan Ames (16:23.074)
Thank you.
Don Ross (16:28.028)
And, you know, I love what comes next. It says, when the other disciples heard this, they were furious. You know, it's like, because, you know, at one level, like, A, we probably wanted those seats. Like, who are you to ask for them without talking to the rest of us? But B, like, hey, that's not really who we are. Like, that's not quite what we do is to go begging to Jesus for the positions of power and influence, you know, certainly without talking to each other about it first.
Jordan Ames (16:42.922)
wrote.
Don Ross (16:54.316)
so, you know, there was this kind of sense of like the brotherhood there of, you know, knuckleheads, all of them, but they at least have the, no, they, they at least know each other well enough to be able to get close and to say, what the heck are you doing? You know, like this, this wasn't okay, the way that you handled that. And I think most men don't have anybody in their lives who can get close enough to say, to say to them, what the heck are you doing? You know, maybe other than your wife.
Jordan Ames (17:09.686)
Yeah.
Don Ross (17:20.864)
but your wife doesn't play quite the same role in your life that a brother does. And that's really what men are lacking is that kind of brotherhood around them that can be able to challenge you enough to say, dude, this is not the right way to be able to go about this. This is the not the right way to handle this. Let's figure out a better way of being able to do that. You've got to have some guys in your life that you've given permission and access to be able to say those kinds of things to you.
Jordan Ames (17:24.502)
Right.
Jordan Ames (17:44.136)
awesome. Yeah. You talked a lot about the, I guess, your premise on everything behind manhood tribes. So that comes from a problem that you see in the church. You mentioned that most church men's groups are mediocre at best. I love how he says because they're designed for women. So what is, help us
Don Ross (18:04.585)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (18:14.092)
help the audience understand why you say most men's groups are mediocre, and then explain what you mean by they're designed for women. Some people probably listening to this like, not my men's group.
Don Ross (18:30.216)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And look, you know, there's exceptions to every rule. so, you know, I don't want to step on every guy's toes here, but, you know, what I would say in general about church small groups is that they're built around what I would call the felt needs of women. They are built in such a way that they are attractive to women and the ways that women tend to connect with each other. So what do I mean by that? Small group environments in a church.
are focused on a few things. One is that we wanna help you be able to connect socially, right? It's about getting together for the sake of interacting socially, talking with each other, enjoying one another's company and presence, building relationships quickly, those kinds of things. There's nothing wrong with that. That's a really good thing to do. That tends to be more of a felt need for women than it does for men. Women tend to actively look for social context to be a part of with other women. Men don't necessarily tend to do that. Men tend to look for...
actions and activities to be a part of and because men are wired for action, men tend to gravitate towards those activities. And when we all show up together for an activity, then we start to develop some social context. But we look for something else as kind of a starting place and the small group environment is really designed for kind of the woman's starting place. That's okay. That's how women connect. There's nothing wrong with designing it that way. but it really shouldn't be a surprise that, it doesn't work as well for men. another aspect of that is that most small groups, are
designed to where you feel like you've accomplished something in the group when you learn something. It's really about information transfer. And there've been all kinds of studies on this. I'm going to summarize it very quickly, especially as it relates to our public school education system, right? This is one of the reasons that girls typically are doing better in the school systems than boys are is because girls tend to be wired for information transfer. They feel like they've accomplished something when they learn something.
guys feel like they accomplish something when they can see results, when they can actually see like something has changed in the external environment around me or about myself. So that's a different type of learning that most of our small groups aren't designed for, right? Most of them are Bible studies of some kind where you're going through some study material, you're watching some videos, you're absorbing some information, and maybe you're talking about how you might implement that and put it in practice into your life, but you're not.
Don Ross (20:49.534)
actually doing any of that in the group itself. Those are all things that you talk about doing, you know, in some other context. so the groups again, tend to be wired for helping women feel like they've accomplished something, but not really the men. So I could go on. There's several other kinds of aspects about that. But the point is, the way that we design groups is, kind of built around this model that works well for women, which is why we see a whole bunch of women, small groups and lots of women showing up to groups.
It's why couples groups that tend to be successful, notoriously hear pastors and ministry leaders talk about wives dragging their husbands to small groups. And that's because it's an environment that's really designed for women. Again, that's not a terribly bad thing. It just means we shouldn't expect it to work as well for men. We need something that's actually more designed for the felt needs of men and the way that we tend to connect with each other naturally if we want it to work well for men.
Jordan Ames (21:40.994)
That's great. That's great explanation. I really appreciate that perspective because as I'm thinking, I'm like, have I even been in a church men's group that was something other than just a small group meeting? I love how you just, you know, critically thought through that. So you have a solution to this though, and you call it the three pillars of masculine community.
Don Ross (21:56.959)
Right,
Jordan Ames (22:10.88)
So can you share with us what that framework is?
Don Ross (22:14.154)
Yeah. So this is the framework that I've used to build what I call a tribe. I think a tribe is a better model of a group that men really need. And the, the three pillars of that are what I call manhood, camaraderie and freedom. So just put very simply, very quickly, manhood just means we need a vision of what masculinity actually looks like, especially in our culture today, where we're all so confused about gender and, you know, what the categories and the definitions and the roles and all of that really are.
We do need some kind of clear direction on what it means to be a man and how we're going to be living that out together as men. Comradery. This is really the way that men are built to connect. We need to develop trust with one another, which takes time. And we need to incorporate some, what I would call adventure into the way that we build our relationships. So there needs to be action. There needs to be activity. There also just needs to be fun. Men need to do things together.
And as we do some of that kind of stuff together is how we build memories and shared experience. And that's part of the way that men build trust. That kind of, all of that together starts to build camaraderie. And that's the kind of thing that men actually stick in a group for. They might show up initially for content sake, if you're teaching on something they're interested in, but they're not gonna stay for that long term. What they'll stay for long term is camaraderie. When it really starts to feel like,
These are my brothers and I don't want to go a week without being, you know, being around them and some significant context. So, that's camaraderie. The third one then is freedom is that, and this is what I kind of was mentioning about in terms of many to see results. freedom is really just about the idea that we need to be able to overcome the major obstacles in our lives. The things that are holding us back from being the men that God created us to be, we need to actually make some progress in those places. We need to see that we're changing, that we're growing.
that we are becoming someone who's different than when we started, you know, our time in that group. And that's what freedom is really all about, but we need a method of being able to get there. And most groups don't have any kind of method for helping a man actually grow and change. We'd like to talk about growth and change, but we don't have any real like, you know, practical steps on here's how that's going to happen. Here's how we're going to push you towards it. Here's how we're going to kind of continue to hold you accountable to it. All of that needs to be a big part of the way that a men's group is built.
Jordan Ames (24:32.022)
I love that. I love everything about it. was thinking as you were talking, co-author, co-host, Eric Albright, who I mentioned to you before we were recording, has the podcast, The Choice, a podcast for men. He and some other guys at his church built a men's ministry last summer.
that I think is dialed into what you're talking about. And when he was explaining it to me, I'm like, man, can you throw that in an email and send it to me? Because like, that's brilliant. And I think a lot of men would be more interested in that than, you know, just meeting small group for Bible study. Yeah, so great. And I remember retiring from the military four years ago, and people would ask me, you know, a couple months later, a year later, even now, like, do you miss it?
Don Ross (25:00.395)
Yeah, cool.
Jordan Ames (25:26.664)
Yeah, I miss a lot of it. I miss the fun stuff. What I miss the most is the camaraderie. I don't miss all the bureaucracy of it, but I miss that camaraderie. And yeah, that's so spot on.
Don Ross (25:35.745)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Don Ross (25:42.904)
Yeah, I think the military nails camaraderie, right? I mean, even when you hear the word, it tends to often be associated with a military context. And that's just because they do some things well that fit with the way that men connect. You are spending a lot of time, kind of life on life, and you're doing it around action and activity. You know, have some shared missions, some shared goals, you're doing things together, and all of that time spent...
Jordan Ames (25:46.37)
Yeah.
Don Ross (26:08.973)
interacting around some shared purpose is just irreplaceable. Like you can't make that up in other parts of life. And I think that's what men are really missing in our kind of civilian context today is that there's just no equivalent of that. We don't have shared missions with other men. We don't have groups of men to be able to have shared mission with. And so we don't spend life on life time together because there's no real reason to.
And so because of that, we're just entirely lacking in that kind of camaraderie. So we've got to be really intentional to figure out how do we create that? You what do we do to help build that? Because that's the way that we're meant to connect. We really need that in our lives, even if our culture isn't providing it for us.
Jordan Ames (26:50.114)
Yeah, so that's a good segue. Can we talk a little bit about that? You say, like, explain why every man needs a tribe, why this is so important. And then you said something happened in your life seven years ago. If you could share however deep, however you want to share that. Yeah, you know, share that with the audience and explain, like, like, like, like my church, we're, me and a couple other men are looking at.
Don Ross (27:09.589)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (27:19.766)
building a men's ministry that is beyond just meeting once a month for breakfast or something. So this is actionable stuff for me right now. So help me out, how can we start building?
Don Ross (27:33.399)
Yeah, that's great. thanks for asking. Okay. So, yeah. So seven years ago is actually when I started my own tribe. So that's, that was what the big change was. I had been working with guys groups in different contexts for, you know, 15 years leading up to that and had been kind of toying around with what's the, like, I feel like there's probably better ways to do this. Let me try some things. And so I was doing a lot of trial and error experimentation in different groups that I was a part of, and hadn't landed on anything solid. And then seven years ago is when I tried, I think I'm going to,
Jordan Ames (27:35.468)
Yeah.
Don Ross (28:03.244)
like I'm gonna go for this tribe model that I had kind of been toying with in my head and see how this works. And so what I mean by that is that I got real practical. So if those three pillars that I talked about, manhood, comradery, and freedom, if those are kind of the big ideas, the question is then, okay, well, so how do you do that? What do you actually do to make those things happen in a group context? And so each one of those kind of has a parallel in terms of what we do within our tribe framework. So we talk about manhood, comradery, and freedom. The way to do that is what I call
Chisel, challenge, and adventure. So chisel, challenge, and adventure. And what we basically do, our model for how we run a tribe is that we meet every week. Three weeks out of the month, we do what we call chiseling. Chiseling is our process for freedom. This is how we, we actually, instead of kind of the typical small group model where you've got kind of like a set of discussion questions and you go around the group and everybody kind of chimes in on each question, we actually spend the whole night just on one guy.
And we try to say, what has God up to in your life? What's he really doing and where is it that he's trying to bring some freedom to you? And we want to kind of explore that whole area and see if we can fight for you to gain some more ground there that we can help you come to Jesus and receive more freedom in that place. So we have a whole process. Chisel is an, is an acronym, that kind of leads you through the steps of kind of what we do over the course of a night, but we're just focused on the one guy.
and helping him to get some freedom through this chiseling process. It ends, and this is probably my favorite part of being in a tribe, it ends that L letter, which is the last step, stands for listen. And so we end every night instead of kind of like the way that men typically tend to try to help each other out. We avoid all kinds of advice giving and quick fixes. So none of that is allowed. We tend to say, you know, if a man could have solved his own problems before he came here, he would have already done it. So he's not looking for quick fixes.
what instead we try to do is we just spend some time listening after we've got a clear picture of what all is going on. We just take it to Jesus and say, Hey, will you speak to us about what you want this man to know? Will you help us to, hear from you, hear from your word, hear from whatever it is that you want to show us in this time through your spirit to be able to offer to him. these are the things that he needs to take away. These are the next steps that he needs to pursue. This is the focus that he needs to have.
Don Ross (30:26.684)
How is it that he's going to find some freedom? And gosh, Jordan, I mean, like I could tell you story after story, but that has been the most powerful aspect of what we do as a tribe is being able to just offer Jesus to each other by listening for his voice. It's been really, really cool when when Jesus talks about like my sheep know my voice. We've been able to witness that firsthand, you know, of really kind of what does it look like to actually hear from Jesus and to figure out as his followers how to follow him well. So
That's how we, that's how we kind of do the freedom piece. have this chisel process that we do three weeks out of the month, then one week out of the month, because that chisel process can tend to be kind of heavy, right? We get focused on some, in-depth stuff. We're asking some heavy duty questions. Um, we need to try to lighten it up a little bit. one week out of the month, we do what we call manhood challenges. So this is our manhood component. Uh, and we get together just kind of for a fun, uh, evening. Sometimes we'll go out to a bar. Sometimes we'll, you know, just hang out by the fire pit at somebody's house or whatever. Um, a little more lighthearted, do some catch up time.
But we try to take what we call our five marks of manhood. So when I talked about with our idea of manhood is that you need a clear vision of what it means to be a man. The way that we do that is with our five marks of manhood. Those things are strength, courage, skill, honor, and allegiance. And we just say, these are the things that this is what it looks like to be a man. Not necessarily what it looks like to be a good man. There's different ways to live those things out that can be good or bad, but this is what it looks like to be a man. And the great thing is that we can grow in all of those things.
Jordan Ames (31:50.646)
Let's get this mentioned here.
Don Ross (31:55.467)
And that's what we do with manhood challenges. We design challenges for each other to say, okay, hey, you feel like you need to grow in the area of strength. Let's talk about what would be an appropriate challenge for you this month that you need to do to gain some ground in that area. Or, hey, you've been avoiding some hard conversations with your wife. Maybe you need a courage challenge to be able to broach a difficult topic. And let's talk about how you need to craft that and what accountability would look like to get you to a place where you can actually have those conversations.
It really can be just about anything that qualifies as a manhood challenge as long as it's helping you to grow in one of those five areas. But it's a great way to just kind of design some fun things, create some actions and some activities. Some of them we do together, some of them we do independently. But you know, it's cool to just be able to kind of continue to challenge each other and keep growing in those ways. that's the four weeks of the month. And then the last piece that I talked about, adventure, is that we try to just probably like two to three times a year.
just do something fun together. try, you know, get together for an evening for fun or a weekend, know, guys weekend out or something that has some kind of, usually some sort of like danger element to it. You know, we're doing something that involves a little bit of risk or involve some novelty, you know, something that's going to create lasting memories. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So like I'll give you one, for example, we're my tribe, actually we're getting ready for our kind of next adventure here in another month or so.
Jordan Ames (33:08.898)
Test the word, test that courage.
Don Ross (33:20.572)
And I'm in North Carolina and every year in North Carolina up in the North Carolina mountains, they host a festival where they kind of imitate the Scottish Highland games. So they do them here in the Carolina mountains. We can't make it to the Highland games this year. So we decided instead, one of the guys in our tribe has a cabin. We're just gonna go spend the weekend at his cabin and create our own tribe Highland games. So we're just gonna come up with.
all kinds of like fun nonsense, know, just ridiculous stuff to do to see who's the strongest, who's the best, who's the whatever, you know, who's the most ridiculous. but the point is like, it'll be fun. Those are the kinds of things. That's the camaraderie kind of stuff that guys just love. That's how you build memories. That's how you actually create relationship that guys want to be around each other. it really helps strengthen the bonds of your tribe and just makes it like, those are the kinds of things that you remember for years to come. So anyway, all of those things. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (33:52.033)
love it.
Jordan Ames (34:13.761)
yeah, for sure.
Don Ross (34:17.294)
yeah. So all of those things, chisel challenge, adventure, you throw all of that into the mix and that's kind of what makes up a tribe and, then we just keep it going. So, you know, unlike a kind of a traditional small group where you're dependent on, you know, what's the next book that we're going to study or the next video that we're going to watch or, know, like it's not content driven, it's just method driven. So we just follow that method indefinitely and, and we can do it for as long as we want to. And, you know, like I said, mine's been going for seven years now and, it continues to be amazing. So yeah, it's awesome.
Jordan Ames (34:46.892)
Yeah, I have. I wasn't writing them down, but I several questions as you were one. So the chisel, the three weeks of the chiseling, is that a different man that, and I'm trying to picture this, you meet kind of like a small group or whatever, you meet together and then there's one guy that night or whenever you're meeting that
is going through this process and you're trying to figure out how you can support him, help him, and then it's a different one the next. So it's three a month, is that right?
Don Ross (35:23.328)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, typically. Sometimes if it's a shorter chisel process, if a guy comes with an issue that, you know, it doesn't take all night to be able to kind of get through the process, we might have time to do two guys in a night, but that's, that's rare. So yeah, so usually it's, it's one guy per night. And then we move on to a different guy the next time.
Jordan Ames (35:40.802)
Okay. so there's probably tons of men listening to this podcast that all they're in the grind of, okay, every week we're doing this study of the Book of Whatever. And then after that's done, we're gonna do another one. And after that's done, we're gonna do another one. So your process, the system of the men's ministry, is it more like you just
Don Ross (36:00.213)
Yeah, uh-huh.
Jordan Ames (36:10.146)
You just fit in, you know, scripture to what you're already doing, or do you actually have specific times where you're like, okay, we're actually studying this book or whatever.
Don Ross (36:21.664)
Yeah. So there's no like formal study component to a tribe at all. Now that doesn't mean that we are, you know, anti studying the Bible. we would just say that needs to take place, in a different context, know, so be a part of a, a couple of small group or something like that and, go through a Bible study together in that context. the tribe model is, is going to say, this is the place where we want to take that, that you've learned and actually put it into practice. So, it's not focused on study.
Jordan Ames (36:25.921)
Okay.
Jordan Ames (36:30.636)
Of course not.
Don Ross (36:51.148)
It's focused on, you know application or wisdom in that sense so yeah, so when we do the kind of what we call the exploration part or the listening part of the tribe, that's when man For guys that are familiar with scripture. That's when all of that really begins to come to life So as we're listening to Jesus If you know your word well That's that's a lot of what he brings to mind is gosh I'm hearing this story from scripture or I'm hearing this verse that I feel like the Lord wants me to share with you
So it just becomes like really beautiful opportunities for all of that to come to life It also and I tell I tell the guys and I tried this all the time It becomes motivation to actually spend time in the word because if you know the scriptures well, you're it's like you're giving Jesus more Ammunition for him to be able to use you well in that chiseling process, right? The more familiar that you are with his word
It's like the more that he can kind of speak to you in that language and like bring that up for you to be able to share with other guys. and so it, you know, it becomes like a, it becomes like a battle technique, essentially, you know, it's like, okay, now this is like, see a purpose for this quiet time that I'm supposed to be doing every morning. You know, it's not just like the, the spiritual equivalent of eating my vegetables, you know, like I'm not just doing it cause I'm supposed to, it becomes like, this is actually arming me and training me to be a better brother, in my tribe context so that I can help.
Jordan Ames (37:50.604)
Yeah, that's good. That's so good.
Don Ross (38:15.658)
these other men win more freedom. Like all of a sudden that's way more motivational, than just, I'm supposed to, know, do this every, every morning for 15 minutes or whatever. So, yeah, that's kind how we go about it.
Jordan Ames (38:28.556)
Yeah, that's so good. And I love that too because it ties right into the lesson we started this episode with, where Jesus is saying, if you will, let me bring up the verse, that for everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice, so your group, as your tribe, is all focused about the practical application, like you said. It's something that churches miss.
It's sad to say, but we get so caught up in listening to the sermon, doing the next Bible study. How are we actually coming together and supporting each other and putting it into practice? That's so good.
Don Ross (39:10.986)
Right. That's right. Yeah. One of my, one of my all time favorite teachers, was a guy named Dallas Willard. and he, he's kind of, I would say a little bit sort of the, the grandfather of what's now become the spiritual formation movement. but one of the things that he loved to talk about was this very idea, which is that most individuals and certainly most churches don't really have a plan for discipleship in the sense of like, we talk about discipleship as being a good thing.
But what are actually the steps that we are encouraging people to take to grow in their discipleship to Jesus? How are they becoming better disciples? most, most churches don't have any kind of plan for that at all. You know, when Jesus says in the great commission that we should be baptized in the name of the father, son, and the Holy spirit, and that we should be taught to obey everything he has said, that, know, like who's teaching us how to do that. Not just that we should obey everything he said, but how to actually obey everything that he said.
very few of us have a plan for that. And so that's really kind of what, you know, as men in particular, think we, we hunger for that kind of wisdom and insight. Like if somebody can just show me how to do the thing, I'll go do the thing. Right. and, and so that's really kind of what the tribe model is all about. Like, how do we put into practice those things and we lean on Jesus to be our guide, you know, to help teach us how to do those things. So yeah, it's great.
Jordan Ames (40:21.462)
too much.
Jordan Ames (40:29.879)
Yeah.
Yeah, we have a couple more minutes. I guess two questions should be pretty simple answers. But things just pop in my head. Do you have an age limit as far as no man under the age of whatever, 16 or 14 or something? Because there's that, you you want as a father of sons, I want my boys to be a part of what we're doing.
Is there, and then is there, when is this model kind of capped at a capacity? Cause if you have a menu group of 50 to a hundred guys and you're like, we're doing one chisel a week. And you're like, man, I'm not getting my turn for two years. know, so just share with us a little bit about like what age are you looking at? To where, you know, the younger ones start to be a part of that. And then what's like a good size for this?
Don Ross (41:19.072)
Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah.
Don Ross (41:31.701)
Yeah, that's amazing. Those are, I like the way you're thinking. Those were really good logistical questions and yeah, we've had to think through all of that. yeah, I would probably say, that I think the minimum age needs to be about 18. You could maybe get away with a group of 16 year olds. I would think you would probably need an older man in the group. if you're going to do it that way, just somebody who's a little more of a seasoned guide to kind of help the guys in that setting.
Jordan Ames (41:37.58)
Yeah.
Don Ross (41:58.305)
But a lot of what we do with chiseling is really has to do with exploring your story and what are the things that have shaped you as a man up to that point in your journey. Most guys don't start to become familiar with those things until they get into their twenties anyway. So, know, any younger than that doesn't mean that you can't do it. It's just going to be a little less effective because you've got to have a little bit more like self-reflective ability.
And guys don't develop that, you know, usually until they're like late teens or early twenties. So that's probably like the best cutoff. I would say to like, it does help, to have a group of guys who are, if, if not similar age, at least some kind of similar stage of life, or that they've got some kind of overlap beyond just we see each other every week in the tribe, right? That's good. You obviously need that. but it helps for building that camaraderie. If you've got some other kind of.
connection or touch point with each other outside of that. Even if it's just like, we've all got kids that go to the same school or, we're all in the same couple, small group together, or we all work out at the same gym together or, know, like it could be really anything. but as long as there's just kind of some additional, like, yeah, I, the, know these guys from another place. These are guys that I would want to connect with outside of the tribe group anyway. that helps with just building that cohesion and that camaraderie as you go along. So those things are really helpful.
and then in terms of, you you're talking about like size of the group. right now my group has eight guys in it. And I would say that's probably the cap. Like you don't want a group that's any bigger than that for exactly the point that you said, which is that in order to give time for chiseling for every guy that we're coming back around to you regularly enough that we're dealing with things in your life. it can't be much bigger than that. So if you've got a, you know, a larger men's ministry or your church, that's, you know, 50 plus guys or whatever, it just means.
Jordan Ames (43:29.378)
I'll be right
Don Ross (43:49.483)
breaking up into smaller groups, you know, like you've got multiple tribes going on in that kind of context. and then training some guys to be able to help lead those, those tribes. call them chiefs that are the leaders of the tribes. but yeah, they're just, there's a good facilitators, to kind of help keep the group, on, on track with that kind of method and rhythm of what we do. but yeah, you know, apart from that too, like I feel like six is probably the sweet spot for the size of a group. if nothing else, that's really kind of like,
Jordan Ames (43:59.766)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (44:14.114)
All right.
Don Ross (44:17.866)
When you think about building that intense camaraderie with a group of guys, you're not going to be able to do it with a group of guys that's, you know, much bigger than probably 12 anyway. I mean, you know what, what, what guy can have 12 close friendships, you know, that's just really hard to do. so like I would say, you know, five or six is doable for most guys. And, that tends to be, I think where the sweet spot of a group is is somewhere around.
Jordan Ames (44:28.919)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (44:42.722)
Yeah, so for the couple times a year adventure, do you bring everybody else together? Like if you have multiple groups of six, you come together for whatever big...
Don Ross (44:53.824)
Yeah, that just, that kind of depends on how, you know, like if you're a part of a church that has multiple tribes and your church wants to kind of do that as a thing, that's definitely a possibility. I would say at the moment, you know, most of the tribes that I've worked with are kind of operating independently. So it's not like they've got a whole men's ministry that they're a part of. They're just kind of doing their thing and staying connected to their local church. But then yeah, they just, go, you know, when they're ready to do an adventure, their tribe just goes and does it. So yeah.
Jordan Ames (45:20.834)
All right. Yeah, that's awesome. And I think, again, you're going to have a great conversation when you link up with Eric because they use the model that Jesus used of like 12 and three. Right. So they have I think it's every week, they're little in the military of fire teams, you know, within a squad. have like groups of three or four dudes that just really sharpen each other. They're just like closely knit. And then
Don Ross (45:26.997)
Yeah, awesome.
Jordan Ames (45:48.962)
Once a month, think it is, they might meet as the whole group of 12 or whatever it is. So that's kind of their model. But yeah, it's great. So we'll go ahead and wrap up. Man, this has been amazing. This has been a great conversation. And I'm so excited for what you're doing and how you're going to just deliver so much value to churches and men's ministries that are either non-existent, that are just really not moving the needle when it comes to advancing the kingdom.
Don Ross (45:53.803)
Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Ames (46:19.018)
Every episode we like to leave with a challenge. We talk about a leadership topic from the book or something. We just want to challenge the listeners to take action, to practically apply, right? Put it into practice. So for the listeners out there, Don has graciously offered a free assessment called How Manly Are You?
assessment will identify your next steps for creating life-changing, masculine community. And so that is my challenge for the men listening. And if you're a woman listening, hopefully you stayed on to this point in the episode, but like men need strong women in their lives to hold them accountable, to encourage them to be part of groups like this. So encourage the men in your life to listen to this episode, tie into
to Don. So you can find the free assessment at howmanlyareyou.com, and we'll put it in the show notes. And then manhoodtribes.com, can find and get to book there, right? Or click on, you know, find it on Amazon from there. Yeah, check them out. And so, Don, really just to close this out, how do you actually
Do you consult for churches? How do you help churches or other men's ministry type organizations? How can they seek help from you, basically?
Don Ross (47:55.393)
Yeah. Yeah. So the main thing that I do right now is I run a coaching program, with men individually who want to build their own tribe. So I help them, kind of over like the course of a 12 week program, figure out what it would look like to bring together a group of guys to kind of adopt our tribe method and rhythm and, and to get it going and keep it running. if a church is interested in doing that with, you know, multiple groups within their men's context, I'm happy to work with the church to help them be able to do that as well.
Jordan Ames (48:05.73)
Okay.
Don Ross (48:25.501)
And we can kind of talk about what that sort of like group coaching model looks like and how to be able to do that. But yeah, the easiest place to kind of get started with any of that is just to go take that quiz. How mainly are you dot com? It's really fun. It's it's a way to kind of look at like, you know, I talked about the five marks of manhood. It'll just ask you some questions to help you figure out where am I doing well? What could I be doing better in? And and then to help you take some next steps on creating some challenges for yourself on how to grow in those places.
And when you download that, it'll get you into our Manho tribes orbit and help you figure out what to do to be able to contact me or to take some next steps if you want to explore starting a tribe.
Jordan Ames (49:02.59)
Awesome. Thank you so much. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Don Ross, manhoodtribes.com.
