Jordan Ames (00:02.232)
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Red Letter Leadership Podcast, where we seek to grow you as leaders, but through that, grow you closer to Christ, closer to our Savior, because we believe that He is the greatest leader of all time, and He is truly the source of all leadership. So I think you're going to love this topic, love in a sense of it's going to speak to you, maybe not one that any of us
Eric Albright (00:29.998)
Was that a pun? Did you say speak to you intentionally?
Jordan Ames (00:35.104)
Yeah, the topics speak to you.
Eric Albright (00:37.708)
Because of Zachariah? Okay, go ahead, sorry.
Jordan Ames (00:41.307)
So, so Eric kind of gave a little little foresight into what we're going to be talking about. So a few weeks ago, we brought up the differences between how how Mary the mother of Jesus responded to Gabriel coming to her and saying you're going to be with child and how Zachariah responded to Gabriel probably about what was that like six months before Mary and
Eric Albright (01:08.524)
It was exactly six months in.
Jordan Ames (01:10.198)
and how he doubted and then Gabriel said that he wouldn't be able to speak. So now nine months after he spoke to Gabriel, John the Baptist is being born. We're gonna look at that, the lessons pulled out of that passage and we're gonna be really getting into how our sufferings, in this case, Zachariah's suffering of being mute for nine months.
how our sufferings can be seen as God's grace. And if we would really look at them from that perspective, it certainly will take humility on our part. But when we look at that from the perspective of them being God's grace, how it can give us opportunities for growth and truly provide a testimony that points people to Jesus. So we're gonna look at those from a couple areas, one being
personal growth just in our own lives, like what types of failures, where have we doubted God, and where he kind of stayed with us and walked with us through those doubts like he did for Zachariah. Because he could have chosen somebody else. When Zachariah doubted, he could have just said, yep, forget you. I'm going to go to another family and
John the Baptist is going to be born from that family. But he didn't do that. And by his grace, he sticks with us because he wants to use us. He comes to us because he wants to use us. And I think he works with us through those challenges. another perspective we want to look at is leading a team. Sometimes, as leaders, we're going to have people underneath us that we're responsible for.
who have a failure? Are we going to work with them through those challenges? Or are we just going to bail on them? So those are some perspectives that we have from this lesson. But I would like to just look at a couple of verses from this passage. We're going be looking at Luke 1. I'm going to start with verse 62.
Jordan Ames (03:35.928)
So John was born, some relatives come in, Elizabeth said that his name's going to be John. The relatives were like, of us, none of the relatives have this name. So verse 62, said, then they made signs to his father. Again, they know he was mute for nine months. They're still thinking he's mute. To find out what he would like to name the child.
He asked for a writing tablet, and to everyone's astonishment, he wrote, his name is John. Immediately, his mouth was open and his tongue was loose, and he began to speak, praising God. The neighbors were all filled with awe, and throughout the hill country of Judea, people were talking about these things. Everyone who heard the wonder about it asking, what then is this child going to be? For the Lord's hand was with him.
So out of her book, I just want to read a passage or a sentence really that kind of struck me that has stood out. Really by God's grace in making Zechariah mute, Zechariah's silence prevented him from spreading his doubt to his fellow priests. Of course, he was.
He was ministering in the holy place. So by God muting him, it prevented him from spreading his doubt to his fellow priests and to his wife Elizabeth. So in that sense, we could look at the grace of God shielding him from the repercussions of his lack of faith.
And I think many of us see consequences, and we get so focused on the consequences, and we think, oh, poor me. I'm not deserving of this. Or why is this happening to me? When really, if we change our perspective a little bit and start looking at just asking God why, I think when we have a humble heart, I think he'll give us an answer. And I think a lot of it.
Jordan Ames (05:59.532)
He will show us His grace. So Eric, with that said, what kind of thoughts do you have on our sufferings, consequences we're dealing with being God's grace? Because sometimes it's the enemy's attacks. Certainly in Zechariah's situation, it wasn't an attack from the enemy. It was a consequence that God issued to him.
Eric Albright (06:24.494)
Yeah, that's a good question, Jordan. So thanks again for having me on. It's good to be here. This is a good topic. I think it's important for us to really wind this back to the beginning of Zechariah's story to really get an understanding of what happened, because this is interesting. OK, so he was a priest, right? And I'm thinking he was a high priest. But he drew, you know, I don't know if you want to call it the short straw or the long straw, but they cast lots.
Jordan Ames (06:29.26)
course.
Eric Albright (06:54.448)
who was going to go into the innermost, the most holy of high places with the ark. They burn incense and they do it yearly, right? While he was in there, I mean, because if you look at, we've talked probably on this podcast before, there's, the temple is the outer court, then we're the only Jews and Gentiles, and the inner court were all Jews, and then only Jewish men, and then only priests, and then the next one's only high priests, and only the most high priests once a year. And so it's like kind of like, it concentrically shrunk to who could go in there.
And only once a year and they drew straws and they grabbed you know I think they tied a rope to the person's Casey died in there struck dead pull him out Well old Zechariah drew the straw to go in and burn the incense and so whether he was like this is awesome or oh crap I'm not sure but while he was in there and again, and he was in there by himself He had a vision. No he didn't have a vision like the angel Gabriel appeared to him like he was sitting there. He's like
Jordan Ames (07:31.18)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (07:41.452)
Right.
Eric Albright (07:53.869)
hey bro, you're here too?
got something for me? You know and he's like yeah in fact I do and he said look here here's what's gonna happen Zechariah I need you to know this your wife who's been barren her whole life and she's advanced in years and by the way similar to I don't know Sarah or Sarai right all these crazy things happen when you know they've been barren for years Mary was a virgin she wasn't barren for years but but Elizabeth was and it was remember the cousin remember the cousin of Mary and and he was like an angel gave her
like hey Zachariah guess what she's gonna be pregnant and he's going to foretell or or
bring in the Lord Most High. geez. And then he goes into a litany of what that means and what this Lord he's going to do. by the way, Jordan, Elizabeth was of the line of Aaron, the Most High Priest from the very beginning, which they said, your son's going to be in line with the prophet Elijah. by the way, Elijah's linked to Aaron as one of the Levitical, from the Levitical Priest line. So this thing is not by accident, right? Yet another thing that's like not an accident.
they chose her. And so yeah, John the Baptist and that's who they're foretelling but but then Zechariah says, well hold on, how will I know this will be so? And at that moment Gabriel's like, you doubt? You know, you're the high priest bro, you're doubting? Okay, so now because of that doubt I can't have you spreading that, spreading that around over the next several months and so you're mute now bud, so you can't talk.
Jordan Ames (09:19.287)
Yeah.
Eric Albright (09:34.422)
And so that's kind of where your story picks up. So like when they're naming the baby post-birth, right? But the point here is, is that that's kind of the preview of the Zechariah and John the Baptist story and in the spirit of Elijah, he brings forth and baptizes Jesus and brings them to the Most High, the Lord Most High, which is foretold his coming, which is why this whole story is crazy. But when your question is about suffering and God's grace in this instance.
It's important to understand that sometimes we're going to learn lessons that aren't going to be the nice way. Because if...
people like in Zechariah's exact example and like you and me Jordan if we were to have a vision or God were to speak to us through prayer or some other type we hear the voice of God would we be like cool I'm gonna do exactly what you say and it's unquestionably the voice of God I'm moving out on that or would we be like every other human in history you include this one Zechariah was like
But dot dot dot. And it doesn't matter what comes after the dot. There would be a pause and the word B-U-T in the middle. But how? Or but when? Or but with what?
Jordan Ames (10:51.306)
Yeah. Or is that really you, God? Is that, I don't really, yeah.
Eric Albright (10:53.996)
Yes, and we wouldn't trust it man. so some and so the point is like we're like well why must we suffer and I'm gonna hand it back to you. But so to set this up though like why was we suffered to learn lessons and the answer is simple because we wouldn't listen otherwise. Period.
Jordan Ames (11:12.024)
Right. Yeah.
Eric Albright (11:13.932)
Right? Prove it. And even after, you know, we've seen a miracle happen, how long, one, would we acknowledge it for what it is, and two, how long would it be until we had forgotten that it actually happened or we would start to disqualify it. If people are not able to just have blind faith and it work out perfectly, it will never happen.
you always question we're a fallen people. And so we then, therefore, need to learn lessons other ways, and also known as the hard way. And so the question out of the gate is why must people suffer to learn? It's because they have no choice. They wouldn't learn it the easy way because people aren't capable of learning the easy way.
Jordan Ames (11:55.074)
Yeah, 100%. And we see this all the way back into the beginning of the Bible, right? To like, especially the Israelites coming out of Egypt, all the incredible signs and wonders, the parting of the sea, and then they start complaining, their bickering. And then even as God's given them the resources, the food, yeah, they start questioning. I was just reviewing some notes from...
Eric Albright (12:07.626)
point.
Eric Albright (12:15.146)
and questioning and asking yeah, exactly, doubting.
Jordan Ames (12:24.44)
reading I did a year or so ago where, you know, I think it was Cora and his little sidekick who were rebelling against, it was in number 16, I think, they were rebelling against Moses. And they're pretty much saying like,
Eric Albright (12:40.278)
And hey look, for the folks out there, if you're looking for something to get you jazzed up about reading, don't start at numbers. But go ahead Jordan.
Jordan Ames (12:48.054)
Yeah, I've actually gotten kind of into numbers over the past year, but it's.
Eric Albright (12:52.29)
Numbers is the place where Bible studies go to die. Right? Because like... Buddy.
Jordan Ames (12:57.024)
Numbers that much better than Leviticus, for sure.
Eric Albright (12:59.982)
Yes, you get through, you know, Genesis and Exodus and you're kind of like catching some steam and then you run into the buzzsaw of Leviticus. You're like, well, maybe the next one will be better. It's worse. Maybe. And you're like, and so you never even get to the Deuteronomy, which then picks up, you know, some interesting things and Joshua. Okay, now we're back. Like.
Jordan Ames (13:09.496)
Right.
Jordan Ames (13:21.9)
Yeah, now we're back. Yeah.
Eric Albright (13:23.212)
But you know, sorry, that was a rabbit hole, but Leviticus and Numbers are where Bible studies go to die. Because you start in like, I'm just going to start at the beginning and I'm going read to the end, and you never make it past those two.
Jordan Ames (13:34.619)
Yeah, but even these, even these, I'm pretty sure they're in the Levi family. So they're like, they're priests, but they're pretty much saying, like, who are you, Moses? Like, why do you think you're the top dog here? Maybe we can do what you're doing. And Moses is just like, are you serious right now? He's like, look, I'm just doing what the Lord's telling me to do. You guys want to try and take my spot? Have it.
Eric Albright (13:52.908)
Well try it bud, here's the staff, go make some water. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (14:03.778)
Like I tried to battle with the Lord of the Burning Bush. I tried to be like, no, send somebody else. He's like, nope, send you. So I'm just fulfilling my role. If you guys think I'm power hungry, I'm not.
Eric Albright (14:03.885)
Good!
Eric Albright (14:12.941)
Yeah.
You think I want to be here? I lived with the Pharaoh, bro. I had everything I ever wanted. And now I'm stuck in this barren desert with you goofballs for 40 years because you won't listen! You doubted! I sent you out to check the promised land, we're going there, and 10 of the 12 of you came back with a problem. And so now I'm stuck here with you, having to provide, and this isn't any fun or is it easy? I don't know how we got on Moses, but you're right. You are right. But they were suffering.
Jordan Ames (14:20.598)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (14:42.4)
Anyway, so I say all that to, yeah, I say all that just to again reiterate your point, like from the beginning of time, we have been hearing from God, he's been speaking to us, he's been wanting to use us, he's been wanting to bless us, all those things, and we've been like, no, like, is that really you Lord? Or, no, I'm complaining, I'm gonna complain about what I don't have, when really you've given me
Eric Albright (14:44.144)
They did.
Jordan Ames (15:12.26)
all you know I remember for for a youth group lesson I was I was just kind of sharing what like what sin looks like and and in the Garden of Eden you have this enormous like beautiful garden and God's like but there's this one tree I don't want you eating from that one tree everything else is your everything and so I was like picture you know like like you're a kid in time out
Eric Albright (15:32.686)
Just one.
Jordan Ames (15:42.232)
Right? Like you're in this big room, but you gotta face the corner. Like you can have everything else in the room, but you decide that you want what's in that corner. So you turn around and you face the corner when God's like, no, no, no, I'm trying to give you everything else in the room. And you're like, no, just wanna stand here and face this corner. I just want this one thing you're telling me I can't
Eric Albright (15:42.882)
Hahaha.
Jordan Ames (16:09.25)
So if we just let God show us the incredible blessings he has for us, and if we just trust him with that, I think that's the biggest thing is that we lack the trust. Despite on how many times he shows his grace, his mercy, his blessings, we're always like, yeah, but I don't know if I can, I I think I can do a better job. I think I have a better way.
Eric Albright (16:24.034)
No question.
Jordan Ames (16:37.56)
And so you get like Zechariah and you're like, well, you know, how can I be sure of this? I was thinking, reading it, I was thinking, well, I mean, if you could just wait like a month and then you'll see that your wife is with child or two months or whatever, then you could just be patient. don't even have to lash out. And God wants to give us
Eric Albright (16:37.87)
That's right.
Eric Albright (16:46.412)
Because he's like, that sounds crazy.
Eric Albright (16:53.325)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (17:05.676)
the promises he has for us. He wants to speak those to us and then us to start taking faith-fueled steps of action towards that before we see how he's going to do it. And what we want to do is we just want to see the how right now. But yeah, Lord, I get it, but I want to see the how. And by God's grace, he disciplines us.
Eric Albright (17:23.788)
And then we question if it's true. Yeah.
Eric Albright (17:30.998)
Is this where comes the phrase, me the baby?
Jordan Ames (17:35.682)
Show me the no, I haven't heard that phrase. Show me the baby. I've heard show me the money.
Eric Albright (17:37.88)
You've heard that? Yeah. Like, I don't care about all the details, just show me the baby. Is this the Zechariah story? It's like, I don't got it, Gabriel. Show me the baby. How am I going to know? I don't know. I doubt it.
Jordan Ames (17:46.712)
Yeah, maybe.
Jordan Ames (17:55.544)
You
Eric Albright (17:57.858)
Well, here's the thing about it. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (17:58.326)
Yeah, so with that, I guess I'm going to put you on a spot some, Eric, but in your personal life, can you recall a time where God was wanting you to go in a certain direction and...
Eric Albright (18:07.33)
Yeah, do it.
Jordan Ames (18:19.542)
and maybe you doubted or you wanted to see all the steps in front of you. And when you didn't, you kind of took matters into your own hand.
Eric Albright (18:32.034)
Yeah, no, think. Yes, I have some instances. And so it starts with, to answer that question, George, how much of a Calvinist are you? Meaning, how much do you believe in purely predestination and zero predestination? Where do you fall on that spectrum?
Jordan Ames (18:49.784)
For me, like to, you know, because I forget where it's at, I don't know if it's Jesus or Paul or, but where he says, all are called, but few are chosen. I think Jesus says that somewhere. All are called, but few are chosen. And I don't think that's.
I'm not going to get into theology of predestination just because I haven't studied it enough. But when I think about all are called, few are chosen, I think the ones that are chosen are the ones who answer the call, are the ones that truly love God and obey Him, which is what He commands us to do. He commanded the Israelites to do that in the Old Testament. And then Jesus, really, what I've seen is in John 14,
Eric Albright (19:34.84)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (19:42.328)
where he's at the Last Supper and he's telling them, love me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me, so we're the same one. Love me and the way you do that is by obeying my commands. And I think those are the ones that are chosen.
Eric Albright (19:57.058)
Right. so I agree. But I don't think the pure Calvinist could square the amount of decision making you have whenever to answer your questions. Like, yeah, I've been in positions where I could tell you that I'm somewhere in the middle. Things are predestined to happen, but doesn't necessarily the road to get there is.
isn't already paved, you know? It's got some twists and turns. It'll get you to where you want you to go, it's maybe not the way you're expecting to get there. And so for me, unless you want to jump in, but for me...
Jordan Ames (20:24.888)
And I also think, sorry.
Jordan Ames (20:35.532)
Yeah, I do. With predestination, the way I kind of look at it too is you have to understand that we serve in all knowing God. So he knows every decision you're going to make. It's our free choice to make it, but he knows what decision you're going to make in everything, right? So he knew that Judas, Judas Iscariot,
was going to be called by Jesus to be one of the 12, that he was going to answer that call, that he was going to serve as one of the 12, but then he would betray him. So here's what I think, because I truly believe in the idea of free choice, like God gives us all free choice to serve him or not. I think God, from before time, he knew those choices that Judas would make.
And he fit his plan into those. So his plan is going to, Yeah, his plan is going to come about. No one's going to stop his plan, why? Because he already fit his plan into everybody's choices. All are called, he wants everybody to be saved, but he knows that many are going to choose that that's not for them.
Eric Albright (21:38.06)
He will use it. Yeah, he will use it. He will use it. Yeah, he'll use it.
Jordan Ames (22:03.0)
that they don't want to have anything to do with.
Eric Albright (22:05.558)
And I could tell you that, I would again, like you are, I would argue that like you and I were meant to be here from the beginning. I didn't realize that at the time, but like, and I was trying to it to not to it wasn't a malicious thing, but I was fighting it per se. Or I was, you know, spitting the bit on it because like, you know, my wife and I grew up Methodist. She grew up Catholic and I know I'd be a Baptist. No, but the way that we got there is, is that we couldn't decide on our marriage on which church we were going to. And, you know, kids went to a Methodist preschool. They'd go to
mass on Sunday when I was gone on deployment. They would, I mean, they were like Catholic heavy. When I got back, they were Catholic light, you know? And so, but we could never agree on, on how to raise our kids, which is another different podcast in and of itself with marriage stuff. But ultimately, you know, Christina and went through some things that showed, that showed us, you know, 10 years ago or so that showed us together. Like we probably need to get some of these things figured out. And we decided at the time to go.
church that neither one of us
even ever thought we'd go to. was not a nominational church with a Baptist flavor. And that was the beginning of the me and her, you know, the us revolution. Like born again. You know, the whole family has since been baptized. We're now leading, we're leading ministries in the church, right? We have a book we put out, you know, has Christ's leadership. We got this podcast. We got the other podcast. Like, and make people have come to Christ because like, and not because of anything we did, because he put us
Jordan Ames (23:20.14)
Awesome.
Eric Albright (23:39.27)
on our backs because a lot of times when you're on your back the only place to look is where Jordan up and you finally submit to his will and so some people are just a little more thick-headed and I was one of them and stubborn and like we don't want to submit to his will he has a plan but ultimately he will he will see it his way you know and you it's either the easy way or the hard way but that's the thing but the suffering there at the time we saw it as a suffering why are we going through this
Why are we doing this? But now we look back and that suffering was actually a blessing to your earlier point. It's a blessing because one, it got us to where we are today that without that we wouldn't have been and oh by the way that curse then was someone else's blessing now. So what we went through, we could give a young couple today and give them advice that they don't have to go through it. So to them that's a blessing. To us at the time we felt like it was a curse but basically you're just building your witness and so that's the main takeaway here.
You have to learn lessons and you're only going to, we've already established the only way that humans can learn is the hard way because we won't listen otherwise because we have too much doubt and we've got the fallen nature in us. But it really comes down to perspective and how, and it's hard to do in it and that comes back to trust, which you said a minute ago, we have a hard time with it. But now, once you've walked through those Psalm 23 valleys of the shadow of death and you've seen that evil, you do fear it, you did fear it, but now you
don't because you're like I saw the worst we could have gone through and I saw what happened on the backside of that. It's like recruit training or OCS. we're training for combat you go through worse so that when you're downrange what's not as bad seems easy you know like you don't train for less and expect more you train for more and hope for less. It's the same thing you I want to put you through the worst because then when you're dealing with sufferings now I now have more trust in
Jordan Ames (25:27.01)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (25:31.416)
Right.
Eric Albright (25:38.856)
faith than I ever have when I'm dealing with sufferings quote-unquote sufferings like Zechariah did or approach with things that I don't necessarily have the answer to I can say look he led us through that he led us through this I'm just trusting him to do that and then I just empty myself of internal thought and say speak to me and lead me in the way in which you want me to go and that is only learned over time that's not a natural occurring substance in human biology you know but that comes you can't learn that without suffering that requires his grace to get you there
Jordan Ames (26:04.152)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Albright (26:08.72)
You know and I've said the analogy and last thing I'll say and hand it back is I've said this analogy on this podcast before On one side of the river is knowledge on the other side of the river is wisdom Okay, you can have all the books marks and be told a million times like something and you have the knowledge But you don't get to be wise until you've crossed that bridge and that bridge is known as experience You can't get to the wisdom without those experiences and slowly over time one step
step across the bridge after another you'll get to the point in which you're now the wise one you took that knowledge applied experience and you've got to wisdom but you can't get there without without the experience which is the suffering I think I may add another layer to that bridge that's experienced through suffering most of the time
Jordan Ames (26:54.805)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (27:00.694)
Yeah, old adage character builds characters tested through adversity. That's a great picture. Yeah.
Eric Albright (27:07.918)
Romans 5, suffering produces endurance, endurance character and character hope.
Jordan Ames (27:14.54)
Yep, and that's really what we're talking about here. Why do we call suffering God's grace? Why do we pull out that point from this passage? It's because God saw the future of Zechariah's family. Zechariah didn't see it. But by God's grace, he stayed with Zechariah. And Zechariah got to experience
him being mute for nine months and what that did to his family, how the friction probably was in his marriage for nine months and him not being able to talk and the things he had to adjust. Like I can't imagine how much just personal growth in his own life that he experienced when his son was born and he was finally able to talk. And then you think about, I don't know, obviously there are...
little advance in years, so who knows how old they were, or I should say how old John the Baptist was whenever they passed away, but they clearly knew, and then well the next passage was Zechariah's song. We won't get into that, but he's praising God for how God uses, for how God uses family, but also for the future of how God's going to use John the Baptist. So his faith
Eric Albright (28:21.166)
Yeah.
Eric Albright (28:30.573)
point.
Jordan Ames (28:41.016)
clearly grew exponentially and to your story that you shared, like God stayed with you, he worked through those things. And like you said, look at you now, you're hosting two podcasts, and it's just adding to our testimony, which to me is exactly building your witness. Like I'm already a Christian, I'm already saved by the grace of God.
Eric Albright (28:43.298)
Good point.
Eric Albright (28:54.392)
Well here's the thing...
That's right, you're building your witness. Exactly.
Jordan Ames (29:10.968)
I am immortal. I've already started my eternal life. The time my heart stops here, my dad always says, when my heart stops here, he says, my last gasp here is my first shout there. Like it's just a transition. And living that way with that perspective, of course, is hope, it's faith filled. But while I'm still here,
It's all about my testimony and how I can help others. And I build my testimony through looking back on where God has taken me and looking at from the perspective of His grace in those times where I struggled, where I had doubt, where I failed.
Eric Albright (29:55.372)
Yeah. So how do our listeners translate this into the secular business world? And it's not that difficult. It's essentially simply this, Jordan. It's like what you have learned throughout your career as the leader of an organization, the onus and the requirement and the impetus, whatever word you want to use, is on you to teach and to pass that on. So take the folks who work for you and make them better through the experiences you've learned and your suffer.
Right or what you've done wrong and and this is where you can put aside pride and put aside how your Involuntar abilities and you are and be vulnerable with your team and be like here's here's why I face this problem Here's where I got it wrong and why don't walk in as the boss who has all the answers What you have to walk in as the boss who didn't have them? But here's how they learned them and here's how they can take those lessons and use them for their good That is how you take this this Christian world and this Christian experience
and apply it to a secular world. It's just passing this information on. But it requires just like faith, humility to do it. It just requires humility to do it. Because a lot of folks are like, well, I can't have them see me in that light. It's Jesus taught us, if he taught us nothing else, was everything is the upside down world. Where you see weakness, he builds strength, right? And in his world, you can't have strength without weakness. you actually, actually in reality, showing vulnerability to your team makes them
Jordan Ames (31:16.907)
Yep, yep.
Eric Albright (31:25.136)
Put you on a higher pedestal and it builds trust and it builds camaraderie and it builds cohesion amongst your team Because then they you're now believable Whereas you know the secular world would tell you don't show chinks in your armor I'm gonna tell you show them all your chinks and and they're going to follow you closer because you're building fibers You're growing fibers together as a team which will make that bond stronger as you go forward and they're gonna trust you more they're gonna give you more grace and they're gonna let you let you lead them because they've
bought in. You can't lead anybody that doesn't like you or doesn't want to be there. They'll listen but there's... you can and you have the ability to transactionally lead them but you what you should seek is the ability to transformatively lead them and that's where and the difference between transaction and transformative is the invulnerability and honesty or vulnerability and honesty. That's what I think Jordan.
Jordan Ames (32:18.13)
Yeah, you mentioned you can't lead people if they don't like you. They don't like you, trust you. And when you were talking about that, was thinking we did, you and I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago on the lesson out of Luke 2, where Jesus, 12-year-old Jesus was left in the temple. Really wasn't left. He intentionally stayed there and his parents went on without him thinking he was part of the group. But anyways, the last verse in that passage,
I'll actually just turn to it.
Eric Albright (32:51.15)
And maybe this where we should end for some time. What do you think?
Jordan Ames (32:53.6)
Yeah, but the last verse says Luke 2 52 and Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and men. So yes, it's not we shouldn't lead. We shouldn't do things just to get likes, right? Just so people like us. But to your point, they have to like us and trust us if we're going to lead them. And so this isn't just about
Eric Albright (33:06.286)
good point.
Jordan Ames (33:23.465)
I'm the boss, so you need to do what I say. Obviously, that can happen, but that's going to be a toxic culture.
Eric Albright (33:30.082)
Yeah, and I would, it's good, and I would pivot a little bit more, like maybe the phrasing, get them to like you is the wrong one. Get them to know you. And it's the same way with our faith. So if you're gonna allow God to lead in your life, how are you gonna do that? The best way to do is to get to know him. You've got to get to know him. And how do you get to know him? You go and you read scripture, right? Because he's in there. And he tells you who he is and his character. And then you just start having conversations. And so the more they know about you and the more we know about him, and I'm pointing up now,
the more likely we are to trust their lead. Period. Case closed.
Jordan Ames (34:05.848)
and from an organizational leadership standpoint, they're going to get to know you more when you're more real. And when you're more real, they're going to know that because they're going to see your vulnerability. They're going to see how you acknowledge your failures and how you're open about talking about that for the purpose of empowering your team to do better, empowering your team to learn from your
John Maxwell's latest book, which I don't have, I haven't read it, I haven't even read a description, but just going off the title, it's titled How to Get a Return on Failure. And just thinking of that phrase right there, like getting a return, like a return on investment, how to get a return on your failure is all about seeing the opportunities that come from it. And I think from the point we're making today is seeing
those past failures, seeing what you walk through as God's grace. Like when we see it as God's grace, that's going to cause us to trust him more. He's like, you weren't just like punishing me. You actually were walking with me despite the consequences that came. You're walking with me and you were growing me in that process. And I think I'll just make one more point and then I'll give you a closing word, Eric.
Eric Albright (35:28.92)
Yes.
Jordan Ames (35:32.984)
Is that as leaders for those that we lead they're also going to fail So we've had we've had a podcast one of our first ones Was talking about being selective. So yes, we have to be selective There may be times where you have to let somebody go you have to fire somebody terminate them in some way But certainly you need to recognize failures in your team
and not just issue the consequence. You need to use it as a way to offer grace and walk with them. In the same way that we've been talking about this whole episode and how God walks with us, he's our example. We need to do the same with those that are looking to our leadership. With that, I'll leave it to you,
Eric Albright (36:27.17)
Yeah, I think Jordan, really the takeaway here is...
for the folks that it's really about conflict, it's really about suffering and I wouldn't, you don't necessarily need to seek suffering and you don't need to seek conflict but what you do need to do, what we do need to do is embrace it. Recognize it for what it is. Curses become blessings. Know that, trust that. So as you're walking through something, the wise move is to take a look around and be like, this really stinks right now but what can I learn from this? What am I learning as we
And being willing to learn something embrace the suck Jordan you've heard that before but
Jordan Ames (37:07.596)
yeah, I've seen patches of that.
Eric Albright (37:09.878)
Yes, so it's you're going to go through things that are really going to be not enjoyable. You don't have to seek it unless you're some kind of weirdo, but embrace it. Know that you will learn something from it if you're willing to do it. If you're willing to sit back and debrief. And so just like when we say in the aviation world, it's not about it's less about the flight and more about the debrief. Like you're going to do the flights going to happen. Things are going to go on, but it's more important to step back once that's over.
And then assess so what did we just do what went wrong? What went well? And then how am I gonna learn from it? So once you get through that suffering or that episode sit back and debrief Maybe it's with your wife over a cup of coffee or maybe it's with a couple buddies you trust like fellas You were here with me as I went through this like what did you see and what can we take going forward from this thing? And that's it embrace it embrace
Jordan Ames (38:04.226)
Great. Well, that's a great way to end. That's a great challenge. So for listeners, that's our challenge. I really challenge you to take some time this week, certainly following this episode, get a piece of paper, and think back, either just something in your personal life or maybe even in your professional life as a leader. Take a piece of paper, write down
Eric Albright (38:26.658)
good.
Jordan Ames (38:31.868)
Failure you might have had write down even a failure on your team that someone has had and how you Yeah tough experience because As I've learned as I've heard said before is we don't learn from experience we learn from Evaluated experience and that means having the debrief like Eric just said sit down jot some things out ask people that Know you from that time. They okay?
Eric Albright (38:37.292)
or a tough moment or a tough experience.
Jordan Ames (39:02.572)
Where did you see me fail? Where could I have done better? And again, look at it from God's grace. When you walk through some terrible things, look at it as God's grace on you that he could have just went and found somebody else to do what he was asking you to do, but by his grace, he's stuck with you. And we're not going to know that unless we really reflect on that. And a great way to do it is to journal it.
So with that, I'll leave you and we'll see you on the next episode.
Eric Albright (39:37.834)
Thank
