Jordan Ames (00:02.06)
Hey, welcome to another episode of the Red Letter Leadership Podcast. I'm excited for this conversation with a friend of mine named Robert Cross. We actually met on LinkedIn of all places. I'm sure a lot of you out there in Cyberland have connected with people on LinkedIn. And chances are you may have jumped on a call with them, but you probably never connected with them in person. Well, we had the opportunity to actually connect in person. Robert's from
Massachusetts area and he was in my area in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania for a few days, about a month and a half ago, and we were able to have lunch together. So it was awesome to meet him in person, which doesn't happen too much when you connect with somebody on LinkedIn. but let me just share a little bit about this very special guest and how much knowledge and just
Robert Cross (00:44.718)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (01:00.214)
a vast amount of experience in leadership and not only being a student of leadership, not only all his business and even military experiences in leadership, but also teaching leadership to the next generation. So Robert Cross, he spent time in the United States Marine Corps. And he spent, I believe it was four years, right, Robert? Four year deployment or four year enlistment.
Robert Cross (01:02.51)
Perfect.
Robert Cross (01:13.08)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (01:26.68)
That's correct.
Jordan Ames (01:29.784)
Yep, and then got out, ended up getting into the entrepreneur space. but now he is not only is he a professor at Grand Canyon University, a Christian university where he teaches online classes to graduate and undergraduate students, he teaches classes in biblical foundations, biblical leadership, culture change and conflict. Not only is he
Robert Cross (01:30.766)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (01:58.328)
Currently a professor, has his doctorate in organizational leadership, but he also just enrolled in an MBA program in critical thinking at another school. So this man is the epitome of a lifelong learner. And certainly, if we are going to be leaders, anybody who is who has that call on their life to step into a position of leadership.
Robert Cross (02:18.711)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (02:24.45)
They need to understand that they need to be a student of leadership first and foremost. So it's great, it's a great opportunity for me to welcome Robert Cross to the podcast. Thanks for thanks for jumping on, Robert. And and I would love for you to just to kind of start, start back and like what makes Robert Robert? What was your childhood? What was your upbringing? Tell us a little bit about your time in the military and just kind of give us about
You know, a few minutes bringing us up to to who Robert is today.
Robert Cross (02:57.784)
First of all, thank you for giving me the privilege of coming on here. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to engaging conversation about leadership because I love talking about leadership. so I grew up in Webster Mass, it's a town not too far from where live now. I grew up in a very abusive home. with there was drugs and alcohol, physical abuse, as well as other kinds of abuses, and I ended up going in foster care.
And so I had a very v you know, pretty much a lot of anger, a lot of hate, a lot of just a lot of difficulty growing up. Fortunately I never went down the the dark path of drugs or alcohol or anything like that in any major way. however I still had this massive issue of of
hatred and rage. I and and my purpose for joining the Marines was I joined at 17. and because as people like to say if I didn't if I didn't join the Marines I'd be dead or in jail. And I also joined the Marines because I had such hatred to my parents that I wanted to I I really wanted to do away with them. I I was so angry. However, it was through the Marine Corps that two things happened. First of all, I got a basic foundation of leadership.
Marine Corps is very good about that. But secondly, I became a Christian by a lieutenant who basically took me under his wing and shared the gospel with me, and I became a Christian. And and you know, it's funny, all that anger and rage and all the questions I had disappeared. I remember asking my friend, I'm like, I don't understand my life, I don't understand the way it is, and you know, I want to go see a shrink. And he says, Well, why don't you
Jesus be your shrink. And then the next day I go to church and it was a fairly large church in in Vista, California. It was a Calvary Chapel. And I go in there and the pastor's like, you know, so many people want to know about their life and they want to ask and have all these questions about why and everything. And they want to go see a shrink. And he goes, Why don't you let Jesus be your shrink? That was the next morning. So that was my first sign of like
Robert Cross (04:55.084)
Maybe this God thing might be real. And my friend told me to get involved in a in a college and career group and I'll meet people like I've never met before. Now, I would I also in the Marine Corps served in the Gulf War. and when I served in the Gulf War, before I left for the Gulf War, I actually prayed to receive Christ. It was when I came back.
So I got married at a very young age and I got back and my w my wife decided that she didn't want to move to back to California. So I went through divorce. And it was on that where I was asking my friend these questions. And it was then that I became a Christian and surrendered my life. Soon after that, I felt a call to ministry. And so everything I did was to pursue that calling of what I believe God called me to do. and in that calling, I started
Started a my first business. It w it was I was only like twenty-three years old. I started an auto detailing business. and I was detailing, you know, big stars cars. and in in it was I I just remember I just wanted to provide for my family at the time. That's all it was. And what I noticed is I had the opportunity to share the gospel with a lot of people, through the business. And and so I I ended up
converting the business from an auto detailing to an actual commercial cleaning business, the the business grew exponentially and had a lot of exp it was just
An incredible opportunity. Not only could I bless myself, but I could bless others and and provide for others. And that was a really awesome thing. So I'm still pursuing ministry. And then what happened, f we we did really well in business, and then I felt God called me to go to Arizona to plant the church, which I did. I I left my business in the hands of of of my best friend and who was my operational manager, which is a whole nother story of faith and how God can lead you. But however, I went to go plant a church without
Robert Cross (06:48.386)
having to beg for money and do fundraises because I had the business. So I ran the business from Arizona, all the administrative side why my friend in Fort you know ran the business in California why I planted the church. Well while planting the church in Arizona we started another business party rental business because I bought a few inflatable inflatables for the church and and because I was a business owner I decided well might as well start another business and again that
business, no pun intended, blew up, as well as it was helping the church to blow up. And so the it was really now all the time what I was discovering was that the the business was the catalyst to the church growing. I was doing more ministry through my business than I was was as a pastor. And so we fast forward now I moved back to Boston.
Jordan Ames (07:20.59)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Robert Cross (07:44.168)
And and I'm I I started the party rental business this time for my son. However, I'm still in ministry. I'm I'm I'm and then God opened up the door for me to go to school to get my bachelor's degree through the VA because I'm 100% VA rated. I got really sick when I got back from the Gulf War. I was really sick and and I had that Gulf War syndrome. And so I was a hundred percent VA. So the God would provide for me to go to school. I went and got my I always wanted to go to school, so I ended up getting my Bachelor of Science in religious studies. And then the VA came to me one day and says, Hey, would you want to go?
Get your master's degree too. And I learned at that point a very, very big understanding of prayer that there are some things you don't need to pray about. And I learned at that moment that I didn't need to pray about that. Yes, of course. So I went and got my master of divinity and leadership, all the while I still have my business going on, so I'm still leading the business and it's growing and everything like that. Well, then I somebody whispered in my ear, go get your doctorate. And and I said, Okay, God, I'm gonna, I don't know why.
I go I don't want to go into the factors of all that, but so I have thirty plus years concurrent business and ministry leadership going on. Now I'm getting my doctorate.
At the end of my doctorate, we have to do a dissertation. And on my dissertation, I'm wrestling with God for months. What do I do? What do I do? And then finally I I had that Holy Spirit. This wasn't the the soft voice. This was the slap of my head voice that everybody can hear because I don't have any hair. that what are you doing? I have I've used my ministry. I've I'm sorry, I've used my business as a catalyst for ministry for years. Why don't I do it on that?
Jordan Ames (09:11.426)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (09:21.966)
And so that it discovered this whole new thing called the theology of work, which we knew a little bit about, but this whole idea this biblical concept of the theology of work and the integration of business and ministry that is from Genesis chapter one to Revelation chapter 21. It's it is all throughout the Bible, this integration of business and work. So I did my dissertation on church-based discipleship for business leaders to find out how effective it was in discipling business leaders.
in sharing the gospel. And overwhelmingly, the research concluded that it it helped business leaders how to share the gospel and use their business as a platform to share the gospel. And so my journey now is writing a book called The Reconciliation of Business Business and Ministry Leaders, The Missing Link in Church Growth, because I believe the catalyst for church growth actually resides in business leaders.
And so and and that's where I'm at now. and this I got hired as a professor at GCU. And so I resigned from church ministry to pursue this because this is where I believe God has called me. Now this is going to bring me to the future. Not only am I in as Jordan said, investing into future leaders, but also want to start a program for foster kids to help teach them leadership.
To help them teach entrepr teach them entrepreneurial skills as well as help them launch their own business. So what I see happening at 56 years old is I see my whole entire life from a child in foster care growing up in the way I did, getting saved, going into ministry, getting into business, now coming full circle where it's all integrated together. And that's where my bio is in a quick snapshot.
Jordan Ames (11:11.266)
Yeah, that's incredible. And and I man, there's so much there's so much in there. We could do probably an episode on different segments of what you just shared. I love I love the and and I'm gonna have to find a copy of your dissertation. I would love to get my hands on that. But the the whole idea Yeah
Robert Cross (11:16.994)
Do we have?
Robert Cross (11:33.42)
Yep. Well I happen to know a guy who could send it to you.
Jordan Ames (11:39.938)
He caught the hen, yeah. So I, you know, one thing I like saying is that the Bible's main theme from Genesis 1 through Revelation is relationship. With first relationship with God and then relationship with others. And so because of that, it's the best book to go to for leadership because leadership involves relationship, right? I never really thought of it.
As like you said, a theology of work. But I I tell my kids often too. I I tell others, like work existed before the fall of man, which means it's not, you know, it's not a bad thing, it's not part of the curse. It's like, you know, we live in a fallen world, so we have to work. Like, no, not at all. Work is a gift, it's part of God's plan of creation. so yeah, I I would love to yeah, l learn more about.
That whole idea of the theology of work for sure. yeah. And then of course, you know, most of the listeners know that I've adopted, adopted four children, sibling group of four out of Pennsylvania foster care. And then we adopted our oldest two from Ethiopia before having her little little miracle baby we call her. But yeah, I love, I love your heart for the foster child. and
Robert Cross (12:43.916)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (12:52.93)
Amen.
Robert Cross (13:00.097)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (13:05.64)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (13:07.576)
Better than anybody, you know, certainly even better than I do, but you know the experiences that kids have in a foster system. and it's just a very broken system. You know, I try and explain to people like it's it's good in theory, like the I think I believe the people that, you know, whoever started it, whenever it started out of, I don't know, the forties or fifties or whenever coming out of the the orphanage type of model.
whoever started that, like I believe that their intent was good, but it's just in put into practice, it just hasn't been really a a good thing in in many cases. And I from my own personal experience, just my opinion, it's a lot of times because the and rightfully so, but the laws are designed to be in the interest of the the biological parent.
And not in the interest of the child. And so the child ends up being the victim to the parent playing this game. of getting you know, that was our situation. But yeah, thanks so much for sharing. So we Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, please.
Robert Cross (14:13.922)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. J Jordan, could before you can I interject something real quick about that? Because I think it's crucial. just to give a idea about Jordan and I, so when we first met through LinkedIn, we talked out and not only are we Marines, which is a very
special thing by itself. there's an understanding there that a lot of people don't understand. But not only that, to to find out that he's writing books on leadership is what I'm doing as well. Not only that, but he adopted kids, as he mentioned, and we ad we we adopted kids as well. I mean, there are so many things like going, my god, I think this is like a God thing and that's why I was so excited when when we were going to go to Pennsylvania, hey well let's meet up because you know, you don't find that commonality in so many different areas.
with his business background and with his mi military background and now with the min you know ministry and book writing and and again the foster care just thing and by the way our our I have a biracial family as well, so it that's another factor that's a an interesting factor in and of itself as well because that sometimes becomes a leadership issue at points. but
Jordan Ames (15:21.55)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (15:21.612)
So that's th there's a lot more to this relationship that that I say I call it a God moment where you know, I think God had brought us together for a purpose. in that.
Jordan Ames (15:30.68)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I also love your outlook on how how business can be used as a ministry to develop the church, to develop the big sea church as a whole. and even at times like fund it, right? Because all resources belong to God. So however he moves those around, it doesn't it doesn't matter, right?
Robert Cross (15:44.14)
Mm.
Yes.
Jordan Ames (15:58.336)
It's all it's all up to him to to provide. and we just have to be good stewards of it. But I I remember
Robert Cross (15:58.636)
Right. Yep. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah. When we talk about fun I'm sorry, when we talk about funding, we just as leaders we gotta be careful how we frame that the business leaders. Yeah, and then we we might be able to get into that a little later. be not to interject, but but yeah, well just real quick, many business leaders feel, and the research is conclusive on this, that they feel like that pastors and ministry leaders look at them as an ATM.
Jordan Ames (16:12.942)
Sure.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I would love your insight on that.
Robert Cross (16:29.946)
and so it's important, even though yes, they they could be a great part of funding, which I live myself and I've seen, it's it's to for them to understand that it's not just about you you know, being able to fund, it's also you bring a lot of leadership capacity to the church.
And and and they can be business leaders can bring a lot of in in ingenuity and innovative thinking and drivenness to a church that it needs as well as that. And they need to be looked at for those aspects as well, as well as catalyst to grow the church because they are out there on the front lines in the marketplace. And so when we when when if we speak only in funding, they can get jaded by that.
And so that's why I say what you know because what you're saying is absolutely true. but making sure that we we frame it correctly so that we don't think that we're just, you know, using them for their funding.
Jordan Ames (17:28.586)
Sure. Yeah, that's a that's a great point. I remember two years ago, whenever I was started writing these lessons that have turned into the right letter leadership book, I remember one person that was on the email list receiving these lessons had reached out to me, like, you should think about be becoming a pastor. And I was like, No, I'm not, I'm not called there. I'm
Robert Cross (17:30.19)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (17:54.253)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (17:56.876)
I don't know why I'm not called there. I just have zero passion or desire to step into that vocational ministry world. but nonetheless, I do have a strong desire to bring, you know, the leadership lessons from the gospels to light and and to push that out. So I'm just following what I believe the you know, the passions, desires God's laid on my heart. so yeah, and and as I've talked to, you know, tons of people like you that are
Robert Cross (17:57.653)
Thank you.
Robert Cross (18:05.87)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (18:14.744)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (18:25.602)
That understand, you know, tons of business owners and entrepreneurs that are all about using what God's giving them to minister. and yeah, it's so I think, and this is where I I think you know, the American church has become comfortable. I s I say that a lot. where there's a lot of at at large there's individuals in the church, there's individuals
Robert Cross (18:33.108)
Okay.
Robert Cross (18:51.938)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (18:55.118)
whether it's business owners or just you know, workers in in other spaces. And then as the collective local institutions of the church, we are so blessed here in America that we do not have much like crazy opposition, persecution, conflict that really causes us to make drastic changes in our lives. And when that
Robert Cross (19:06.446)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (19:10.126)
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Cross (19:20.844)
Mm. Right.
Jordan Ames (19:22.806)
comes from the outside and pressures us, sometimes how we respond to that opposition or conflict is just not godly. Not not to say that it's that we're like doing evil things or bad people because how we respond, but we're responding in reaction and and rather than being prepared for that opposition. And I think the reason why we're a lot of times not prepared for that
Robert Cross (19:24.76)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (19:32.704)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (19:50.528)
Is because we're comfortable. We're comfortable in the status quo of the day-to-day ministries and the status quo of our business. We're not seeing, even though you know, I'm speaking to many believers here, we may not be seeing our business as a ministry. We may only see it as a way to provide for our family. But I just think when we really envision how God can use again our our business, maybe
You know, we lead a nonprofit, a ministry nonprofit, or or we're just workers in the church. However, God has blessed us, when we can really truly seek Him to how He wants to use that for a big kingdom impact, I think that that causes us to just rewire our thinking. It causes us to make different decisions. And that alone will step us out of our comfort zone. And I love the fact that that you're on with me, Robert, because I think
Robert Cross (20:22.232)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (20:35.47)
Thank you.
Robert Cross (20:42.456)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (20:49.09)
Just in your short the short bio you've given us, you have tons of experience in that. in facing different conflict and opposition. You're teaching that type of stuff to students now. And so I would love to to just get some of your feedback on that idea of like and I say the American church and certainly there's the body of Christ throughout the world, but they're just like
Robert Cross (20:52.28)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (21:16.404)
America's the most blessed nation in the world when it comes to resources and and financial ability and you know, innovation and techn all that type stuff. Like we are truly blessed. But I don't know how long that's gonna last if we just if we just not do anything with it, if we just enjoy the status quo.
Robert Cross (21:34.83)
Well I have several things to share. First of all, I want to encourage you that although you're not in the role of an official pastor, you are pastoring.
by the by what you're doing. again we that that falls into the sacred secular divide where pastors are a higher calling and they're called separate. Now I believe we're called into a pastor can't be called to be a pastor, but you know, pastoring is is not it's only used as a title once. pastoring in the Bible is what something somebody does, they shepherd. And so I would say that Jordan, whether you like it or not, you are pastoring in a positive way. So
Jordan Ames (21:43.085)
Amen. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (22:08.878)
Right on. Right on, I I'll take that.
Robert Cross (22:12.08)
Anyway, so so the American Church comfortable. Let me say I I I completely agree with that. again, we face little
opposition and I'll start off with a couple things that happened especially during COVID. COVID, I read some articles, journal articles, COVID, and there was a lot of division in the church because of COVID. And and one of the a couple of the things that came out were stuff were sayings like this. Well it's very discouraging when the when the church is half empty. I'm like, well wait a second. I mean you know half empty I'm just glad if one person shows up. right
So so we get into that thinking. But more importantly, there was another saying that really struck me. And this one pastor in a in a journal article writes this. I didn't sign up for this, talking about the the this the all the f infighting and the division in the church. And and I think I'm I'm like and and I and I sat there and I'm thinking in my mind, what Bible are you reading?
I mean, you look at the apostle Paul, that's all it is, is conflict after conflict after conflict after conflict and personal conflict too. And we'll we'll get into that. Okay. So is the church comfortable? Here is what I've I've I've come to notice. and and it will tie it into leadership because that's really crucial at the end. When Jesus called his disciples, he said he called and he said he called them to be with him. That was the first thing he called them to be with him.
Jordan Ames (23:16.172)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (23:40.726)
And then he says, then they will go out and serve and do those kind of things. He called them disciples before they ever even believed in him. When Jesus turned the water to wine, he said, then his disciples believed on him. Call them disciples, though. Then you fast forward to John 6.
Verse 66, one of the most horrifying verses in the Bible. And he talks about hard sayings. I even wrote it out here because I want to read it because I think it's so crucial to the comfortableness of the church. He says in John 6, verse 60 through 66, he says, Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying, saying, Who can understand it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples complained about this, he said to them, Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where he has before?
Is it is the spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life. But these are some, but there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray him. And he said, Therefore, I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my father. From that time
Many of his disciples went back and walked with him no more. He called them disciples, though. Walk with no more. What I and then you you follow the disciples a little further, and what you see is the talking to the disciples again, and I don't have the verse in front of me, but they're talking about if you know you you love your mother more than me, if you love your father more than me, he says, You cannot be my disciple.
Jordan Ames (25:12.344)
Well.
Robert Cross (25:29.504)
What? Well, then he further says, then he further says, if you do not forsake all that you have, you cannot be my disciple. So here he comes calling the disciples before they even believe on him to saying you cannot be my disciple with these radical issues that at one time I was struggling with going, God, I don't think I can be your disciple. I had a misunderstanding of grace, but the point is what you see Jesus doing in his leadership is raising the bar.
Jordan Ames (25:57.635)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (25:59.272)
As they're growing in their relationship with Jesus, they're raising the bar. What I see the church doing today is lowering the bar on a continual basis. That's why I say the church is comfortable. They complain we have too many services. Okay, let's cut this service now. Most churches today have one service. That's it. There's no other way to be discipled beside beyond that one service. Then you have some churches have small groups again. And again.
What is most of the content? Most of the content is based on a a a a certain book about a topic, like how to have a better marriage, how to have be better at your work, how to do these things. However, there's very little that is based on learning theology. Very little. the church, as you might have heard this saying, is you know, four thousand feet wide and one inch deep. And it shows to the to the
To the point that the church is basically biblically illiterate. And I and I think we see that today. Barnes' research has concluded that, and that comes from s basically a lack of leadership in doing what Jesus did in John 6 by saying hard things. Remember, it says, Hey, this is it. This is the way it is. The church is lowered to bar that we we have don't have, we don't have theology is not taught.
We've even come to the place, and and I don't mean to offend anybody by this, but we can't even use a new King James Version or an NIV version. We need a translation version now. again, all points to what I believe is lowering the bar to where we're very comfortable. not only that, we're so concerned about how the church operates that we make it more of an entertainment center and and and a country club, as some people called it.
Jordan Ames (27:52.27)
Ha ha.
Robert Cross (27:52.514)
Than an actual place of discipleship. Just today I had a I was talking to a student just today on on an issue of of of of churches comfortable, and and I was talking to her about some certain things on that, and we forget that Jesus went into the temple and overturned the tables when things weren't going well. When things weren't comfortable, Jesus went and said, I'm gonna make you uncomfortable.
By overturning the tables. I think that's a very strong point. He had enough leadership to say this isn't right. And to be able to confront that issue. Okay. One of my favorite books of the Bible, can you imagine if the church operated like this in Nehemiah? Watch what Nehemiah says in chapter 13, 21. Then I warned them, talking to his brothers. Then I I mean he was talking actually to the people outside the gate, trying to stumble the Jews.
Then I warned them and said to them, Why do you spend the night around the wall? If you do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time on, they came no more to the Sabbath. When Nehemiah said, I'm gonna lay hands on you, he means I'm gonna basically, as a Marine, I'm gonna whoop your tail. Okay? I'm gonna go Marine Corps on you, okay? It's not gonna be pretty, all right? Well, Nehemiah doesn't stop there. Listen what he says. I contended with them and cursed them.
Jordan Ames (29:06.114)
Yeah. Lay hands on it.
Robert Cross (29:18.718)
Struck some of them and pulled out their hair. That's not how I got this way. And made them swear by God, saying, You shall not give your daughters as wives to their sons, nor take their daughters nor for their sons or yourselves. Now I'm not saying we could do this in America, but it points to the leadership that Nehemiah had that he was going to do everything he could to protect his people.
Jesus was going to do everything to protect his people and to honor God. And today we're more concerned about what the unbeliever thinks than how we're treating the believer. And I think this is where the real leadership problem arises and why the church is so comfortable is we're trying to make it so comfortable that they feel comfortable. I had a pastor tell me once when people come into this church, we want them to feel like it's just like it is out in the world so they don't feel uncomfortable.
That is so contrary to the gospels and the book of Acts. What made the book of Acts so attractive was you had 12 leaders who were willing to make people feel uncomfortable and because they loved them so much, which were so radically different, they were willing to confront them. Remember Ananias and Sapphira? Whoa. And so what made the church attractive then was because they were so radically different than the world.
Jordan Ames (30:35.192)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (30:41.218)
Well, today the church is trying to be so much like the world, which by the way, was the reason First Corinthians was written, is because they were the the world was having more of an influence on the church than the church was having on the world. So I'm a big believer that the church has become so comfortable today. and and I'm not afraid to say that. I think I think real leaders are willing to stand up and say and not be so passive. when's the last time a church has exercised Matthew 18?
you know church discipline. you know, so so there's a lot of reasons why I say that the church has become so comfortable, but let me tie it into leadership now. One of the reasons that I believe the church has become so comfortable is not necessarily I don't want to be s too negative and saying a lack of leadership, but it's be because I think we become convinced of what a successful church looks like.
Jordan Ames (31:12.973)
Right, right.
Robert Cross (31:40.94)
And that means successful churches numbers. as we we've heard it say, you know, you know, bodies, butts, and buildings, and we've we've heard those sayings. And so what happens is, and we talked about this when we were at the when we went out to to to lunch that day, we're so focused on church growth that we forget that we're called to make disciples. And so just this morning I was having a conversation with a student saying well, like when when all those people left.
The in John 63, they walk with no notice, Jesus didn't go chase him. When the rich young ruler rejected what Jesus had to say, Jesus didn't go, wait a second, wait a second, and try to he said, Hey, they've got him walk. And what I said in my my response to the student is I think so often we're concerned about those who aren't there instead of being concerned about the ones that are there. And so as leaders, we're called to make disciples of those God has entrusted us to make disciples yet.
Jordan Ames (32:21.155)
Right.
Robert Cross (32:39.402)
Our emphasis is so much on church growth that we're focused on the ones who aren't there, the unbelievers, that we forget the ones that were there. And we're actually not loving them the way Jesus wants us to love them. Jesus focused on the 12 and then the 70. That's what his primary emphasis was. And so this goes into why I believe where it starts with leadership is because leadership has to start saying, you know what? Leadership is not necessarily about church growth.
Leadership necessary is about having a largest church. Leadership is not looking at the church down the street as a competitor. Leadership is operating in the capacity that God has given me, being so thankful for that, and doing being faithful to what God has called me to do. Jordan, you're being faithful to what God has called you to do. And that is to do these podcasts right on leadership from Jesus, and which is wonderful and needed. So my leadership perspective on that is that I think today why the church is comfortable is
Because we're we have all these leadership degrees, which I teach, but I think also could be a detriment because why? It makes us self reliant.
And when we become self reliant, that is a dangerous thing for any leader in a Christian context. And so we go to these we go to get our degrees. It it creates isolation, but we get our degrees, we read all our books and we think, well, now I'm qualified. And I said this just the other day on a on a on a s on a to somebody. Whenever we think we're qualified for to be a a leader or a pastor, that's when we are not qualified.
Jordan Ames (33:57.07)
Yeah, it creates isolation.
Robert Cross (34:17.494)
And so yet we have we have all these things that tell us that you're qualified. And then the other aspect is the way churches are operation today is the leader decides who leads, the leaders decide who is going to be a part of their you know leadership and everything else. And so are they really necessarily led by God? Much of the church today is looking for people who will buy into their mission and vision more than their actual growth in Christ.
And so the because of what the way leadership is being taught today, I believe it's it's it we misunderstand church leadership or spiritual leadership the way Jesus demonstrated that. It's interesting that Jesus said, you know, he did not come to s to to be served, but to serve. And then he says this the last will be first and the first should be last. But we've kind of misconstrued that. And also, he was faithful in the little things, too much is given. Yet we're reaching for the
big things so much that I think we missed the little things. And so these are just a few snippets of understanding I've got from leadership. so I don't want to take too much time on that. But yeah, I do believe that the church is too comfortable because we've lowered the bar so much. We made it so easy for Christians to come to church, so easy to to to say yes to Jesus without ever talking about the need to repent, which go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. w without the idea of, you know, where Jesus said foxes have holes.
and and birds have nests, but the Son of Man, it there it it it it should be at a cost. And today I don't believe we're we're preaching that cost that it takes to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Therefore it's considered easy believism. And so we I think it's time for have leaders to rise up to s like Nehemiah and say, we ain't gonna tolerate this no more.
Jordan Ames (36:00.342)
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's so good, Robert. so much there. And I I I do wanna I do wanna say for the listeners, like whenever whenever we say that the church is comfortable, it's very much a a general statement. We we recognize that that I I know personally, just in the past couple of years of my life, times where I was I was comfortable.
Robert Cross (36:02.626)
Well
So much there.
Robert Cross (36:19.17)
Yes.
Robert Cross (36:26.422)
Okay.
Jordan Ames (36:26.72)
I was like, I don't, I don't wanna take that next step. I don't wanna go in that direction because I lack the faith to really, but I fear this, I worry about that, I doubt that it's you know, that it's gonna make me feel good, or whatever the case. and so there's there's certainly periods of comfort that we need to be, you know, at times giving ourselves a good audit, surrounding ourselves with.
Robert Cross (36:35.982)
Well you should.
Robert Cross (36:47.126)
Mm.
Jordan Ames (36:55.01)
Men, if you're a woman, surround yourselves with other women that can hold you accountable to when when you are comfortable, they can they can step forward and and help you through that. But then then looking at the church as an institution, again, there's there's many churches out there that are are recognizing that they they should not be comfortable. They shouldn't stay in that state. They should be.
Robert Cross (37:09.688)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (37:21.888)
Advancing the kingdom in whatever capacity, whatever direction God has placed on them. but but again, generally speaking, there are many, many churches and individuals within the body of Christ in America that are just okay with like, you know what? I know my account is settled. I know I'm going to heaven, and I'm just gonna be good with that, and I'll enjoy, you know, the blessings as I as I you know.
Robert Cross (37:26.486)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (37:50.06)
live out the rest of my life. And and really God calls us to go and make disciples. So like where is our urgency to really step out of our comfort zone and advance the kingdom, multiply whatever it is He's given us to do that mission of advancing the kingdom. And that looks different for each one of us. That looks different for each, you know, church on the corner. But the idea is that we are urgent about it and we're focused on the kingdom impact and not just
Robert Cross (37:50.999)
The last sea lower at the point.
Robert Cross (38:11.054)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (38:20.066)
How do we keep the lights on in our church? Because I think, and I and I'm I'm just thinking right now of the in the description of the church in Laodicea in Revelation three, like he had Jesus had a I don't know, I guess an ultimatum, really is a is a way to say it, you know, and and and my footnotes say that that Laodicea was a a city that was thriving.
Robert Cross (38:24.646)
maybe you just gotta be.
Jordan Ames (38:48.492)
They had financial institutions, they had good medicine and innovations, and they were just enjoying it. They were just comfortable in that situation. And Jesus said that they're lukewarm and that he would just spit them out of his mouth. And I, you know, I I I think to some extent that mirrors the American church. And so if we're just focused on our own existence.
Robert Cross (39:01.87)
What do you face?
Jordan Ames (39:17.172)
If if to us good stewardship is managing a checkbook and not taking risks with the resources God has given us for the purpose of advancing his kingdom, if we're not willing to do that, well really why should why should Jesus keep us around? Maybe those church doors should close, and that's not a bad thing. You know, we hear about a church door closing and we think it's a bad thing. Well, maybe
Robert Cross (39:34.465)
Yeah.
And one of them.
Jordan Ames (39:46.188)
Maybe God's just, you know, getting rid of the riff raff that he can focus on the ones that are actually advancing the kingdom. there's there's so much there. but one thing with churches, Robert, one thing with churches that do want to really pursue that kingdom impact, chances are it's going to change how they do things to some regard. Maybe some of their ministries, some of the
Robert Cross (39:55.638)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (40:16.134)
services or whatever won't change, but to some to some respect, they're going to change things. And that change is going to cause some conflict, is going to cause some opposition. Again, I say it all the time that when any of us as individuals, as organizations, when we start, when we start moving in a direction that God is truly calling us, we start taking steps of faith in that direction, it's not a matter of
Robert Cross (40:28.194)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (40:45.862)
if but when the enemy will up his attacks and start opposing that movement. We live in a fallen world. It will happen. So Robert, could you just share like maybe you have some some real world experiences, whether in business or in or in some of your you know pastoring that you've done but just share some of that how how you handle that opposition and please like pull us out some some red letters that might tie to how Jesus did it.
Robert Cross (40:56.31)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (41:01.549)
Mm.
Robert Cross (41:10.382)
Yep. Yep. Well, I Jesus did not hide from conflict. That's the first thing. when dealing with the Pharisees, he would he I mean he he pulled no punch and said, You guys are whitewashed tombs, you guys are snakes. And he was truthful to them. And I think that's being truthful does not mean you're you're always lovey dovey. we we saw how Nehemiah, Nehemiah loved his people enough that he was willing to confront.
other people. Okay. Jesus was the same way. He was he was loving people enough and he loved those ones who were fallen enough to say, hey, if they want to walk, they can walk. so
in America, I don't think we know how to handle conflict that well. Just this I've been going through conflict just in the last couple of weeks with of all things Little League. my leadership has been questioned. I've been slandered. I've been my gosh, it's just whatever from an assisted coach who's done nothing. And and and and so I respond I responded with the conflict in in a loving way, as as lovingly as I could, not giving any ambo to anybody.
to give them any you know as a Christian we don't want to give the enemy any ammo.
to shoot back at us and and sometimes when we deal with conflict it's very easy to do that. So yes, I pray about it. I seek counsel when I handle conflict. But I there are times when it is okay to stand up to the opposition, to stand up for yourself. Paul at times gave him defended himself. He I'm a Jew of a Jew, I'm a tribe of Benjamin, I'm a Hebrew of Hebrews, and what you know, he he had to pull out his credentials. you know, just the other day I had to kind of pull out my credentials to to to make a defense on something. But
Robert Cross (42:52.268)
Overall, we don't handle conflict in America well. What we what we most do is we we first of all avoid it. there's a lot of conflict avoidance. Jesus did not avoid conflict. he he matter of fact I say went directly into conflict. Like I said, he went to Samaria. Boom, I'm going here. that was a very thing that caused you know could have potentially caused a lot of conflict.
But we have to understand our higher that Jesus has a higher purpose. And sometimes God will have us go into places of conflict for a purpose. What we need to remember in the midst of conflict is that Jesus is there with us. so I have a I have a I have a thinking that that some people might disagree with on this when it comes to conflict, Jordan. Most people worry about where God is when it hurts, when you're going through conflict, when you're going through times when it hurts. I'm not worried about where where God as God is at when I'm going through the rough.
When I'm going through the conflict, I'm worried about where God has it when things are going too good for too long. Because the Bible tells me where God is when it hurts. The Bible also says God gives us trials, God gives us conflicts to in Romans to shape us and who he wants us to be, give us patience, hope, and love. He develops that character within us through trials. So when I'm not going through trials, I'm like, okay, God, where are you at? I'm expecting a trial because that's how I know that's when I know for sure God's working in me. That's a very different take.
That's a very different take on conflict. So in America, we can most of most conflict is handled by not really dealing with it. Jesus was willing to deal with it. We also see the Apostle Paul in Galatians 2, 11 through 13, when he confronted Peter. He says there in Galatians 2, even though I'm apologizing not red letters, but I think it's appropriate. he says, Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face.
Jordan Ames (44:13.197)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (44:35.609)
It's good.
Robert Cross (44:40.642)
Because he was to be blamed, for before certain men came from James, he would not eat with the Gentiles, but when they came he withdrew and separated themselves, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with the hypocrisy. So Paul was willing to confront another leader, because he understood the greater implications of it.
And that's where real leadership lies, is we're willing to step into conflict, understanding that to not to has a greater impact on the whole.
And and and that's the point that is so vital. So often in a in an organization, we we are s we so I the students answer this all the time, just like this. Well, how do you handle conflict? Well, the Bible says do it all you can to be at peace with all men, which is true. The Bible says confront them with gentleness in Galatians, which is true, and and we need to love them and we need to pray for them, which is all true. And then I ask them a question: What happens when that doesn't work?
Most Christians, even leaders, don't know how to respond to that. Well, how about this? How about fire them?
Jordan Ames (45:52.591)
Right. Yeah.
Robert Cross (45:54.521)
You know, and so what happens is what happens is we've been we've been taught to believe that this is how we handle conflict. We love them, we we we we try to meet them where they're at. You've heard those things before. We do but this person is still toxic and you're in a team of twelve in your organization. All twelve others are miserable.
So what we're communicating as leaders at this one that this one toxic person is more important than the 12 others. And it's more important for me to love this certain person more than it is to love the 12 others. And this is where conflict gets really out of out of whack. And and leaders need to understand that listen, there are times love and dealing with conflict is you have to separate that person. Now, I have a biblical basis for this. It's Acts chapter 15.
Most people don't realize, first of all, Acts 15 is the conflict chapter. There were two conflicts. One, an organizational conflict, where they were where all the leaders came to Jerusalem. It's called the Jerusalem Council. They all came to the Jerusalem Council, and it says they debated heavily. They were heated in their debate. All the leaders over this whole circumcision issue in Gentiles.
The good thing about conflict is sometimes it exposes flaws, it exposes things you need to deal with. this happened also in Acts chapter 6, when there was an issue in the church, there was a conflict with the with the widows who were being neglected. This is brought to the forefront, but the leaders of the church dealt with it. They said, Bring the issue to us, and then they gave a solution. Choose seven men among yourselves. They chose seven Greeks, such exceptional leadership there, and the conflict was resolved.
The same thing in Acts 15. They came together and James stands up and says, Well, how about this? Why don't we why don't we do this? And what about that? And they go, Hey, yeah, you know what? You're right. But the conflict brought about issues. And so we we need to first of all stop looking at conflict as always negative. There are positive aspects of conflict. The second thing is Paul and Barnabas. They had a conflict next over John Mark. John Mark bailed on them in the first missionary trip. They're getting ready to go on their second missionary trip.
Robert Cross (48:05.618)
And Paul saying, Ain't no way John Mark's coming when it ain't happening. Barnabas is vouching for him. And Paul says, No. It says they were again, use the word heated. Two massive leaders in a heated conflict. And they separated. Now, the scripture never says that they were in sin. Matter of fact, people look at it and it multiplied the ministry. Barnabas took Simon, I mean,
And and Paul ended up taking Timothy, so it multiplied the ministry. However, we also know that later on in Romans fourteen, Paul called for John Mark because he's useful for me. What's interesting is in Paul's ministry, he didn't have time to disciple, he didn't have time to train, he needed someone who was ready. And so sometimes in ministry, we can't just take the person who's of who's we think is just available.
That might cause a detrimental aspect to the leadership of or what we're trying to accomplish in the leadership. Barnabas being the encourager and the disciple word took him, and obviously it worked out. Now, here's the leadership point that I I think is very important in this. As I ponder this and I use critical analysis, was Paul being a hypocrite? Barnabas vouched for Paul when he was a threat to the disciples, right? And so you these are this is how I look at scripture.
Jordan Ames (49:02.519)
Right.
Robert Cross (49:32.474)
What a hypocrite. No, he wasn't being a hypocrite. He understood that the mission and what it entailed and had to make tough leadership decisions that might have hurt people's feelings, that might have been perceived as wrong. And all but for the but the mission in this trumps at times. And so in this case, Paul had a calling, which he absolutely had, and he at this point in time, John Mark was not ready for that. So therefore the debate came.
It ended up working out just the way God, because they didn't allow the conflict to completely separate them to where they weren't friends and things like that. And so I think that and I think they learned this from Jesus because Jesus, as you said, he handled opposition like I said, he overturned the tables. He was very confrontational. He had no problem with confrontation. And I think today leaders are afraid of confrontation because they feel like confronting is sort of unloving, and it's not. And and I think this is a real leadership problem.
Jordan Ames (50:27.32)
Then I law.
Robert Cross (50:29.379)
That happens in the church today and why the church is also comfortable. It goes back to that. so these are some things that I've learned about leadership when it comes to conflict and how America handles conflict. We're very bad at it. We don't do well, we don't see the positive. And in today's idea of tolerance, whether it's you know on you know sinful issues or whatever, we feel as though if someone doesn't agree with me, they're wrong. And this has crept into the church.
No, it's not wrong and they have a different opinion and it's okay. Maybe God has called them to something different than what He's called you to do. And we have to acknowledge that. Maybe, you know, I see, you know, I was marginalized in a church once because I saw things a little differently. And and and therefore, rather than saying, hey, you know, that's a different opinion, but that's not part of our vision, they decided it would be better to basically almost personally attack me. And that's what happens with a lot of leaders say when a leader feels under attack.
A lot times they're prone to attack back. we learned from David and and Saul, he never you know, Saul never chucked a s I mean Peter ne I mean David, to get my name straight, David never chucked a spear back at Saul.
Jordan Ames (51:40.824)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (51:42.574)
And yet leaders today need to learn that. And so I in this whole incident with the Widow Week, I never chucked any spears back. they were being chucked at me. But and again, and this was a non-Christian environment. So therefore, you know if I responded in a way that was negative, in this case, it was better just to there are times when it is better just to say, you know what? I'm this this is not a conflict that needs to be responded to. They can continue to do what they want to do. If I respond, they're gonna use that against me.
However, there are times, and again, me because me not responding did not impact anybody else. And that's a crucial factor in leadership. The key issue for me is how how you respond to conflict and how it will impact others is so crucial to leadership in my in what I've learned.
Jordan Ames (52:11.895)
Right.
Jordan Ames (52:33.25)
Yeah. That was great. Thank you for for sharing all that. Yeah, I was thinking there there's a couple of lessons in in the Red Light Leadership book about being selective, you know, being actually having discrimination whenever we're, you know, selecting someone for our team or or whatever the case, when when you're talking about some organizational leadership, like yeah, not everybody is is a good fit.
Robert Cross (52:35.832)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (52:46.99)
Yes.
Robert Cross (52:53.615)
Yeah we are.
Jordan Ames (53:01.222)
And sometimes when people are making the situation toxic, like you shared earlier, like you can fire somebody in love. Like you can still love them in the midst of firing them. And that may be one of the best things you do for that person. You you may not know, but getting them away from away from your that situation, getting them
Robert Cross (53:15.363)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (53:28.748)
You're giving them an opportunity to go grow somewhere else. That's on them to do. And you need to be as a leader. You're responsible for number one, accomplishing the mission and taking care of your team. So if that one person is is just a cancer, yeah, you may need to you may need to, you know, fire them. You may need to get rid of them. yeah, you're right. It's so, it's so hard for for Christians in all walks of life.
Robert Cross (53:29.679)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (53:41.295)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Cross (53:56.483)
Yeah. Yes.
Jordan Ames (53:58.06)
Like to just have those tough conversations with people.
Robert Cross (54:02.233)
Jordan, I would also add, I like to add this too, is we often hear, which I believe is true, availability over ability. And that's not always true. you know, you put the wrong person, you put the wrong person in the wrong position, man. That could derail your whole organization. and and so I I agree with you, we have to be discriminatory in in that matter of hey, they're they wanna do it, they wanna do it, and and yet they just don't have the ability or they don't have the leadership capacity yet.
Jordan Ames (54:14.944)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (54:32.465)
doesn't mean they won't. And that's what I love about Jesus. Jesus was willing to take a risk on twelve uneducated men, the people least amount, that people would expect to to be the future leaders of the church. And when you look at Peter, and think about how to deal with conflict. Peter was always in conflict with himself and with Jesus. I mean, he was always opposing Jesus. Jesus he was so in conflict with Jesus that, you know, Jesus had to tell him, Get behind me, Satan. you know, but as a leader, Jesus
Jordan Ames (54:58.658)
Yeah.
Robert Cross (55:00.471)
Jesus understood that he needed he needed those harsh words in order for Peter to become a battle eater. also what's under what I what I've come to learn is that what is our strength is also our weakness. And Jesus knew this. Peter's strength was his boldness, it was also his weakness. However, we read first and second peter, and what is the primary message of first and second Peter? Humility. And and so
And and and and so we have to be able to under be able to work with people to help them grow, but to be able to point out those flaws, to show people their boldness or their arrogance or whatever else. I love that and and and I've been really wrestling with the the church reconciliation process and what that really looks like 'cause the Bible doesn't really have a whole lot to say about it. It we get the example of Peter, when he f denied the Lord and then what does he do? He goes, you know,
do you love me feed my sheep do you love me tend my sheep do you love me feed my sheep and he was restored into ministry jesus never even brought up what he did wrong and and and so as leadership I think as leaders and this is this goes both in a church and organizational sense. I I think sometimes there's a overlap. you know leadership is leadership whether in the church or in a a we in in an organizational leadership. And a lot of people I think they miss that point. So my point is simply to end with this on this is that
Jordan Ames (56:05.848)
Yeah.
Jordan Ames (56:17.314)
Yeah, often. Yep.
Robert Cross (56:25.603)
There are time where was I at? with Peter. I think we need to rethink as leaders how we respond to those who fall, because I believe one of the biggest issues today with leadership, Jordan, is this there is a huge lack of accountability with leaders. Who holds the leader accountable? And and that's the big key. Accountability is not just because you say, well, I'm accountable to so and so.
That's not accountability. David was he got to be the leader and he lost all his accountability. He the the sin with Bathsheba was no secret sin. He told the servants, go get her. They brought her up. He told them to bring her back the next day. He told all the servants what to do with Uriah. There were many people who knew what was going on with David. Yet no one was willing to call him to the carpet and say,
Jordan Ames (57:07.351)
Right.
Robert Cross (57:24.899)
David, what are you doing? No one was willing to keep him accountable. Now, understandably, I get it. They could fire me. And for David, he could have them, you know, their head lopped off, right? Because that's the way it was in that time. But I think leaders need to start really considering intentionally, intentionally pursuing accountability. I think we are reading daily about leaders failing into different moral sins. And I think the reason why is because who holds the leader accountable?
Jordan Ames (57:35.223)
Right.
Robert Cross (57:55.46)
The and a leader has to make himself accountable. And how does he do that? Well, for example, I'll just use me, and this is maybe over the top, but people, I have other leaders who have permission to come to my house anytime they want. They can show up my door right now. They don't need to call me, hey, can I come over? Nope, nope, I'm you know, I'm involved in something I shouldn't be doing. listen, I have ring doorbells. They're intentional. They're intentional to hold me accountable. Like, you know, now I know there's ways to work around, but that's the point. I have I have friends who have all my passwords to my computer.
Jordan, I have somebody can jump on my computer right now and see what I'm doing. A friend of mine. So I've intentionally put some things in there for there to be accountability. And I've I've listened the biggest key, I've got three friends of mine that said, you have permission to hold me accountable, to call me out. If they're not giving permission, there's a good chance they won't. And so I have three people who are close to my life who have permission to call me out as a leader on anything.
Jordan Ames (58:30.102)
Yes. Yeah.
Robert Cross (58:52.897)
I have even one person who has access to my bank account. They can go my bank account and look at where I'm spending my money. I think as leaders, I know that's a little radical, but I think I want to be above reproach. I believe that gives me that sense of that gives me the sense of I'm above reproach. So I believe one of the biggest risk to leaders today is their lack of accountability. And don't give me, well, I meet with leaders, I meet with you know my my employees every week and we talk about it. No, that's not accountability.
Jordan Ames (59:04.896)
Yeah, that I was just thinking that. Yeah.
Robert Cross (59:21.869)
That's saying you're accountable, but is there real accountability there? Are you really sharing your heart? Are you really sharing your struggles? Are you really being open? And then you have to have those leaders in your life who aren't gonna, you know, I I've had this happen. You know, I I I allow myself to somebody to be accountable and then they use it against me. You gotta you gotta be very strategic in who you choose, that they're not gonna use it as a weapon against you. Doesn't mean if I deserve it, that's not using it as a weapon.
If I deserve to be held accountable, I deserve it. And I should willingly receive it as a leader. Leaders need be open to correction. And so anyway, I'm just stop there and you can add your thoughts on that.
Jordan Ames (59:59.502)
Yeah, it was great. I was I was just thinking to sum up that last segment that you've been you've been giving us. It's really two questions for the listener. And it it could be, it doesn't matter what the leadership context is, you could be a whatever a CEO of a multi bajillion dollar company. You could it could be in the marriage parenting context, it could be as a leader at your church. I think the two biggest questions is what is our culture there? Cause like as you mentioned with David and Besheba.
Robert Cross (01:00:07.3)
No, no, no, no.
Robert Cross (01:00:16.505)
Right.
Jordan Ames (01:00:29.154)
The culture probably wasn't encouraging those servants to hold David accountable and to say, wait, no, this is wrong. That the culture that David had existed in his whatever, you know, palace area and stuff, the culture did not allow him to be accountable. And so what is your culture? And then within that culture, what are the accountability structures? You you just heard Robert's what a great example, personal example of structures that he's built.
Robert Cross (01:00:41.178)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Ames (01:00:58.318)
To ensure he lives above reproach and that he's accountable. I think, you know, a great question would be if I had any sort of accusation to Robert to be like, hey, I think you know, whatever. You did this or you were doing that, just by hearing him talk earlier. Like he could he could pick any one of these, you know, true accountability partners to answer for him in his defense.
Robert Cross (01:01:03.545)
No.
Robert Cross (01:01:13.422)
Yeah, ooh, okay.
Jordan Ames (01:01:28.226)
Because the the truth is like he's an open book when it comes to that type of stuff. yeah, what a what a great what a great example. so with that, Robert, I think it's it's time to wrap this up. Could you I like to leave the listeners with with a challenge really how to apply, you know, the things that we've covered, the the topics, the discussions we've had, how to how to apply that to their lives. So could you could you offer to the listeners just a short you know, concise way that they can
They can apply this?
Robert Cross (01:02:00.037)
When when it comes to leadership, one of the things I try to teach students and which I try to teach those around me is leadership is not principles. leadership is is something that is is very fluid. You it's something that's continually evolving, if you want to call it that, to each situation. So I would be careful and I would suggest for those who are pursuing leadership to not just read books where they're sort of programs, where if you just if you just do this, this and this, this will be the outcome.
I found that not to be true. So when it comes to leadership, as we started off the podcast talking about being a lifelong the reason I'm a lifelong learner is because leadership is so fluid. Really quickly, leadership back in the day was so influenced by culture that the church acted as a hierarchical system, just like the world. Well, now the church is moving into the collaborative teamwork, whatever.
Well, that's what where transformational leadership and all those other theories come from, which by the way is is more of a biblical model. So actually we're the the church right now is in a in a cultural sense, more aligned to New Testament
leadership than Old Testament leadership in a sense because Old Testament wasn't hierarchical. New Testament was more collaborative teamwork. Jesus called 12, he empowered them, he equipped them and all those things, all those buzzwords you hear today about leadership. And so I would say if if you're going to do that, be a lifelong learner. Make sure your leadership stays fluid.
and make sure that you know you understand that leadership is not a program and it's not just principles. It's how you exercise leadership that becomes so vital and important. And I can't every situation is different. There are certain principles that you can point to, but always and that's and just to remain humble and to not come to a place of entrusting in yourself. Like I said, the biggest detriment of leaders can be their self-reliance because.
Robert Cross (01:03:54.34)
God has called you the leadership. He's given you books. He's given you great guys like Jordan to come along and help you in and understand leadership. But when we come to that place of realizing that I am now something or now that I am you know, this capacity because I've earned it or I've somehow merit it.
That's when we set ourselves up for a fall. And my biggest thing is I don't like to see leaders fall because from a church perspective, it brings a negative impact on the church. And from a cultural perspective, if you're a Christian fall, it it it just it gives the the world a a a punching bag. And then thirdly, from an organizational standpoint, it can destroy your organization. And therefore, we know if it does that, it affects many, many people. And so we have to understand our leadership, like Jonah, if we if we mess it up, we can we can affect a lot of people.
So that's why we want to have this accountability. We want to have this lifelong learning. We want to continue to pursue, I believe what I love is is the Jesus style leadership or the red letter leadership.
Jordan Ames (01:04:52.896)
Amen. I love it. Thanks so much, Robert. It's been great having you on, brother.
Robert Cross (01:04:54.288)
All right. Yeah, well hopefully we'll have another opportunity because I I could talk about leadership all day if you can't tell. Yeah.
Jordan Ames (01:05:03.682)
Yeah. Awesome. All right, we will see you on the next episode. Bye for now.
